Question about a safe.

by **Spectre42** » 26 Jul 2004 20:12

Greetings friends,
It has come to my attention that not only is this a forum of experienced lockpicks, but also some adept safecrackers. Anyway, I have a beat up old safe in my house that I have the combination to and I figured that in the spirit of education, I would take it upon myself to try to figure out how to crack it(non-destructively).
But alas, I am not nearly as educated as i need to be to do this and I am begging for the help of those who are.
Below are links to pictures of the safe(inside and out). I dont expect a "how-to" about this safe, but any information/reading material that you folks could provide me with would be greatly appreciated.
Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3
Picture 4

Thanks again!

by **hzatorsk** » 26 Jul 2004 20:55

Giving away the secret is obviously bad. But given the age and style of this lock, perhaps this could be considered an antique safe for novelty purposes.

First... consider chasing down information on Master combination locks and any manipulation techniques related to them. What you have here is not that different. In fact, people asking about combination padlocks would benefit from seeing this safe in operation.

Since you know the combination... translate what you know into what you feel as you manipulate the dial with and without pressure against the unlocking bolt. If you feel that again on a similar lock... Well... you get the idea.

You should be able to open this safe with your eyes closed. Of course every time I say that... the darn things manage to embarrasee me.

by **logosys** » 26 Jul 2004 22:18

I believe howstuffworks.com did a special on safecracking, let me see if I can find it.

by **logosys** » 26 Jul 2004 22:18

logosys wrote:I believe howstuffworks.com did a special on safecracking, let me see if I can find it.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/safecracking.htm

by **Spectre42** » 27 Jul 2004 0:08

Let me start by saying thanks to both replys...

OK, so I'm trying to take into account what Hzatorsk said, and the information from howstuffworks.com(though I'm not sure if i should exactly trust it).

For one, this safe does not use a drive cam so to speak. The dial spins the third wheel, which kind of acts like a drive cam. So I'm not quite sure if that puts a flaw in the howstuffworks.com method since it derives contact points from the fence making contact with the notch in the drive cam.

Second, when applying pressure to the locking mechanism, I can definately feel relief in pressure when the "drive wheel" passes through its corresponding number(which would be the third). But i'm not quite sure how to translate that. Yes, that means I have one number figured out, but am i just supposed to guess the second two by going through all the possible 2 digit combinations? Or is there some kind of logic that I am missing?

I can definately hear the audible clicks of the wheel flys making contact with each other, but can't seem to make any sense of it.

Thanks again to both replys.

by **Romstar** » 27 Jul 2004 0:12

Logo,

I am constanly impressed with the qaulity of the quotes you seem to find.

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

For anyone who does not know this quote, it is Sir Winston Spencer Churchill, from a speech given at Harrow School, October 29, 1941

Romstar

by **mcm757207** » 27 Jul 2004 0:23

The safe shown in that picture would be very easy to get open by simply manipulating it. I'm not sure if this can be discussed in these forums (i wouldn't know... I don't have access to advanced forums yet), but if you play around with it for a bit you'll figure it out.

by **Spectre42** » 27 Jul 2004 0:31

Please, if there is anything that cant be mentioned in the forums, feel free to send me a private message through lp101, I check them frequently.

Thank you.

by **mcm757207** » 27 Jul 2004 0:55

This really isn't a hard one. If you can even understand how to crack a safe that has a drive cam on it than you should have enough knowledge to figure this out. No graphing involved.

by **Spectre42** » 27 Jul 2004 1:16

Well, I guess its back to the drawing board on this one then.
I guess I'm just not seeing it, or maybe just misunderstanding what I think I know. Either way, I'll go stare at the workings of the safe again.

by **mcm757207** » 27 Jul 2004 1:20

Think about what happens when you enter the wrong combo and attempt to retract the bolt. Now try to retract the bolt while turning the dial. That's all I'm saying. Nothing to it.

by **Spectre42** » 27 Jul 2004 1:30

Hrm, okay
I tried to say something like this earlier, but here goes...
When I try to retract the bolt(applying constant pressure), the dial becomes difficult to turn in all but one place - where the third wheel notch is. That's the only place where I can tell any difference at all(i guess that would be kind of like the pin binding effect of lockpicking). So that gives me one number - the last one. But since i have to spin the third wheel to make contact with the first two, I'm not sure how to get those first two to "bind."
Once again, thank you for your time.

by **hzatorsk** » 27 Jul 2004 7:16

Okay... lets see if discovering the differences between the howstuffworks safe and yours may help you. From the pics we know...

Howstuffworks (HSW) is showing a seperate drive cam attached to the dial. This drive cam also retracts a bolt. HSW also notes that clicks are heard the wheel notches come around. They even go so far to show a data analysis strip logging all the clicks for reference. With this info... you can open many good locks. However, this is common stuff for newer combo safes. Not yours.

You can inspect your lock so you know... You don't have a seperate drive cam... one of your wheels is attached directly to the dial. (Like a master combo padlock). You don't have gravity or springs pulling your retraction bolt into the wheel pack... you have a mechanical knob that throws the bolt if the wheel notches are aligned. Roughly similar hasp of the master lock again.

So... mechanically they are different enough that the techniques to open them will vary. We've discovered that from your pics. No big secrets here!

But... they are similar enough that you should be able to find a way to detect the notch in wheel #2 and wheel #3. My guess is your first wheel is slightly larger diameter and prevent the bolt from touching #2 or #3. You will need to think through a way of getting around that problem. And I suspect only one dial position exists for it. You'll be spending some time back and forth to your last digit.

While your at it... since you know the combination (assuming RLR order).. look at the lock and figure out your LRL combination. Start by turning left first.... That'll help get your mind off the numbers and realize your are just causing 'effect' to the wheels and not getting hung up on which number it corresponds to.

Harold

by **Spectre42** » 27 Jul 2004 15:09

FINALLY!!!
Much thanks goes out to Harold for that last post that helped me out immensely.

Just curious if this is how you would have gone about it...
1. I packed all the wheels to the right and set them on an arbitrary number (say 0).
2. I turn the dial around left once and then to an arbitrary second number (say 3)
3. I turn the wheel back to the right to the third number which I already know. Once it is on the 3rd number, I apply hard pressure and try to spin the dial.
3b. If it feels no different than any other time I've dialed the last number right, then I missed the second number and repeat all steps, this time increasing the number on the second wheel by 3(as this safe has very large dialing tolerances).
3c. Once I finally dialed the correct second number, leaving the second and third wheels in the correct place, the locking bar slides a little more into the notches, causing the third wheel to be UNABLE to move at all as it is larger in diameter than the second one, and catches the locking bar on either side of the notch. Thus I can tell that I have the second and third numbers correct, and the first is a 1/100 shot... well 1/33 actually if I'm going by 3's.

Once again... thank you Harold.

Also, how do you guys get practice on different safes? I cant imagine that you buy safes like you can padlocks etc.

by **Spectre42** » 27 Jul 2004 15:11

PS
Can all safes be opened LRL and RLR?

Question about a safe.

Question about a safe.

Who is online