Extreme pick-resistant lock

[mcm757207]

Think about a lock that had this:
--6 pin serrated bottom pins / serrated spool driver pins
--Sidebar medeco-style (with rotating pins)
And the thing that makes it a real pain to pick...
a keyway shaped like this:


The keway pic above is not exactly what i have in mind (the only thing i could find on google really quick), but just imagine a very tight zig zag pattern, to the effect of the Y1 keyway x100. The zigs (lol) in the keyway would have to be close enough together so the bevel on the bottom of the pin is high enough to be raised by the key. This would prevent traditional tension wrenches from being inserted and would be near impossible to pick with traditional picks. This would also create a very interesting-looking key to say the least

[WhiteHat]

if we're starting another "building a pick-proof lock" thread....then:

has anyone seen diagrams of folger-adam locks? apparently they're used
in prisons - the diagram that I've seen has three sets of pins - one
vertical (standard) one horizontal(ish) (like a dimple lock) and one set
that is vertical next to the standard set but instead of interacting directly
with the key, it touches the horizontal pins (which have notches in them).

you have to move the horizontal pins in order to pick the second vertical
row of pins, and at the same time pick the horizontal pins themselves
without upsetting the already set (maybe) second row of vertical pins.


I guess you could describe it as a sidebar lock except the sidebar is made
out of pins, each of which has a different shear line.

I've tried in vain to find a diagram on the internet but I'll keep looking.
but I think they're on to something - having parts that do not directly
interact with the key. I think that if someone's going to create an extreme pick resistant lock they'd better start thinking outside the plug...

[WhiteHat]

Maxi-Mogul is what it's called I think:
http://www.folgeradam.com/17series.htm

[randmguy]

Folger Adams was the first thing I thought of when I saw that proposed keyway...And if you look at the F-A website, you'll see that with all the measures they take to make a secure lock they still call them pick-RESISTANT. You should take a look at the prices the charge for these things too. That's the challenge with making a more secure lock...Producing it at a low enough cost that consumers will still be able to afford it.

[frollard]

isnt there a setback to that design - the pins resting on pins - assuming you can pick the 'would be sidebar' pins, as soon as they're picked, they're in the right position to allow the 2nd row of vertical pins to do their job.

[quickpicks]

If you're really desperate for one of those locks, or a kleptomaniac
You could py a digital payphone off a wall from somewhere. They usually have 3 good practice locks on them.

[WhiteHat]

isnt there a setback to that design - the pins resting on pins - assuming you can pick the 'would be sidebar' pins, as soon as they're picked, they're in the right position to allow the 2nd row of vertical pins to do their job.

yes, but when you pick the side ones, the vertical ones may not be binding yet and so may have to be picked again or worse: the vertical ones are binding but not the horizontal ones...also once you release the side pins (not that I've actually mucked arround with one) they will push the corresponding vertical pins back up again (pushing the bottom pin into the shell).

nightmare....

[WhiteHat]

found a picture:

http://www.correctionscatalog.com/faloc ... ispcat=228



nasty! can't imagine what it would be like trying to turn past 85 degrees or so after picking...

[Chucklz]

Yeah, I know theres going to be some language issue here, but I beleive this is one time in which this may be reasonable:

.

[Exodus5000]

I've mentioned this once before, but picture this:

A medeco lock modified so that on one side it maintains its original sidebar design, while on the other it has an additional primus sidbar + pins.

Good friggin luck I say.

[WhiteHat]

...so like a bilock with rotating medeco-style pins?

[Romstar]

Why Adams ever thought that was pick resistant is beyond me.

Come on people, look at it, and THINK. Visualize what is going on in that lock, and you realize where the attack starts, and how to pick it.

It was meant to mess people up who hadn't seen the locks mechanism. Even from blind with no knowledge of the insides it can be done, you just have to analyze what you are seeing and feeling.

Your objective isn't to screw the lock. Your objective isn't to beat the hell out of it with a rake. Your objective is:
TO MAKE THE LOCK PERFORM AS IF A PROPER KEY WAS INSERTED.

Think about how to acomplish that, and all this picking becomes easier.

Romstar

[WhiteHat]

ok, so romstar says it's easy - that must mean either he's a l33t p1x0r or
he just thinks a bit more than everyone else.

since I've never seen romstar write in l33t sp33k before I have concluded
that it was just him thinking....

so I thought to myself "I think, therefore I Am" and wrote this:

WhiteHat's theoretical guide to picking an F.A. Maxi-Mogul:
-----------------------------------------------------------
for reference, we'll call the pin rows 1,2 and 3 in clockways order
(3 = horizontal)

Overview:
Find the most binding pin, pick it. if there is no binding
pin AND the plug is not moving, then it means that a pin in row 2 is
binding. push gently on each of the row 3 pins to find which row two pin
is binding (very gently so as not to upset any already set row 3 pins.)

Additional:
If a row 2 pin binds prior to the corresponding row 3 pin, then it will be
overset - attempt to nudge it down by pushing the row 3 pin all the way
so that the little hook bit on the end of the row 3 pin nudges at the row 2
pin. insanely fine control on the rotation on the plug is required (bring on
the falle wrenches or the feather touch ones if you know how to use
them).

When a row 2 pin is set and the corresponding row 3 pin is not, the row
three pin will be constantly pushing the row 2 pin upwards and as a result
may require a bit more tension to hold it there. the advantage of this
however is that the now set row 2 pin is holding the row 3 pin exactly at
the shearline.

If a row 2 pin binds after corresponding row 3 pin has been set, it could
be overset or normaly binding depending on if the row 3 "bottom" pin
has dropped back into its resting spot due to gravity or not. it is possible
that the spring pressure from the row 2 pin will hold the already picked
row 3 pin in place until the row 2 pin sets. from then on, gravity and
friction should hold the two bottom pins for row 2 and 3 in place.

now of course this is all very easy to do if you're a citizen of the land of
theory, or in your dreams.... or if you're a l33t p1x0r like romstar.

[Exodus5000]

...so like a bilock with rotating medeco-style pins?

Correct.


And as for the current lock in discussion, just looks like a regular pin tumblre to me wither more pin stacks. pins group 1 (using white hats assignments) can be picked normally, and it would appear that pin group 3 needs to be picked first to gain access to pin group 2. It'll obviously take longer, but its just like picking 3 locks in one isn't it?

A hardcore restricted key way could make this pretty fun.

[logosys]

...so like a bilock with rotating medeco-style pins?

Correct.


And as for the current lock in discussion, just looks like a regular pin tumblre to me wither more pin stacks. pins group 1 (using white hats assignments) can be picked normally, and it would appear that pin group 3 needs to be picked first to gain access to pin group 2. It'll obviously take longer, but its just like picking 3 locks in one isn't it?

A hardcore restricted key way could make this pretty fun.

In theory - the pin sets on #3 will likely serve as "bob" pins - unsetting the previously set stacks on #1...