Importance of binding order?

[JohnnyWalker]

Hi all,

I've been reading several different threads here trying to get tips for SPP and while I've found some very valuable tips, I also find myself a bit confused (big surprise from a newbie lol). Based on what I have read here at the forum and other online sources the binding order varies from one lock to another, both from brand to brand and even from lock to lock of the same make and model. From what I've read here at the forum I've seen that many of you start in the back of the lock and work your way forward and some do just the opposite, but either way you're setting one pin at a time as one does using the SPP method.

So, my confusion stems from the fact that pins don't necessarily bind from back to front or vice versa. Sometimes the first binding pin might be the 2nd, 3rd, et cetera (is this correct?). If this is the case, how can one start at the back or the front? Wouldn't you have to know which order they bind in rather than just being able to start in the back or front and working your way towards the front or back, respectively?

So far I only have four locks to practice on and I've been able to pick all of the them, but I think that's been more out of luck than anything else. And one of them I've only been able to pick once, so I'm quite certain it was just dumb luck in the case of that one. Even with the other three that I have picked multiple times now I just start in the back and work my way towards the front of the lock and I think I'm raking rather than picking. I've been using my single hook or my raking hook (I think this is sometimes referred to as a "c-hook" even though the tip looks like an "s" rather than a "c"). It's this limited experience, plus the comments from a few other threads here that make me wonder about the importance of the binding order of the pins. Any clarification you folks can provide will be appreciated. Thanks.

- JW

[JohnnyWalker]

Oops, I just realized I posted this in the "Pick-Fu - Do...Not Try" section, but I meant to post it in the "Got Questions?" section. If this is okay here then no problem. If it's not, could one of the mods move this thread to the appropriate section, please? Thanks and sorry for the hassle.

- JW

[gloves]

Hello and welcome I'll try to answer your questions as clearly as possible, in order to solve your doubts.

So, my confusion stems from the fact that pins don't necessarily bind from back to front or vice versa. Sometimes the first binding pin might be the 2nd, 3rd, et cetera (is this correct?). If this is the case, how can one start at the back or the front? Wouldn't you have to know which order they bind in rather than just being able to start in the back or front and working your way towards the front or back, respectively?

You have to begin sensing the pins and feel which one is binding first, then proceed to find which one is binding after setting that first one correctly and so on. When SPP, you can start from the back or from the front, but you'll still have to find which one is binding by sensing all of them one by one, as they don't have any particular order (they differ from lock to lock) other than the one you'll find out.

I've been using my single hook or my raking hook (I think this is sometimes referred to as a "c-hook" even though the tip looks like an "s" rather than a "c").

That's probably what most people call a "snake" pick You might try practice raking with a half diamond pick too ("that one which has a triangle head").

Cheers

[shadow11612]

Yes the binding order is important, and finding the order is not impossible. First, put tension on the plug and with your pick feel each pin stack. If all the stacks move a little, apply a little bit more tension. The pin stack that will not move, or has more resistance than the others, is binding, and should be your first pin stack to pick. Release enough tension to allow this pin stack to move and lift it to the shear line and you will feel the click of it setting and the plug will rotate just a hair. Then feel the other pin stacks, looking for the one that will not move. release enough tension to lift this stack and repeat the process over to find and lift the third pin stack and so on. Remember that anytime you release a bit on the tension wrench, do not let it go too much or you will release the pin stacks previously set.

Granted this does not take into account security pins.

Also remember the binding order will only apply when the tension is applied in the same direction. If you reverse your direction of tension, clockwise or counterclockwise, the binding order will be different. If you have the binding order, it will not always be in the opposite order when the tension is reversed. That is 32415 will not always become 51423, there could be a couple of pins that change position in the order.

If you are having trouble determining the order, because sometimes the binding order and the length of the pins work against you, sometimes it helps to reverse your tension. I have locks that I cannot SPP in one direction, but will pop open in seconds using opposite tension.

All of the above is my technique and it works for me. If it does not work for you, modify, change, or ignore it to what works for you. Just keep going until you find the technique that fits and works for you.

Hope if nothing else this gives you some food for thought and makes the process a bit easier to understand.

[JohnnyWalker]

gloves,

Thank you so much for the warm welcome and the advice you have offered here. After doing some digging I found that different companies use different names to refer to various pick styles and some of the companies refer to the pick with the "s" tip as a snake hook and others refer to it as a "c" hook. In any case, I have found I have a great deal of luck using this one for raking. This one, the single hook, and the diamond hook all seem to work well for me. But like I said before, I think I'm just getting really lucky. That or some locks can just be easily picked using the raking method, although I'm not sure if raking is considered picking. I still need to learn a lot of the vernacular of lock picking and the locksmith trade.

Also remember the binding order will only apply when the tension is applied in the same direction. If you reverse your direction of tension, clockwise or counterclockwise, the binding order will be different. If you have the binding order, it will not always be in the opposite order when the tension is reversed. That is 32415 will not always become 51423, there could be a couple of pins that change position in the order.

If you are having trouble determining the order, because sometimes the binding order and the length of the pins work against you, sometimes it helps to reverse your tension. I have locks that I cannot SPP in one direction, but will pop open in seconds using opposite tension.

shadow,

Thank you for your advice and tips. Your comments here have raised some for me, though. I did not know you could apply tension in either direction. I always thought tension had to be applied in the same direction the key had to be turned to unlock the lock. I don't doubt your words here. I just didn't know this to be the case. Since reading this post I've tried applying tension in the opposite direction I've been using on the locks I have and so far it has not worked. Is that because I'm raking and not using the SPP method?

Thanks again for your advice and tips here, you two.

- JW

[shadow11612]

On applying tension in different directions. First let me say that I am talking in generalities and my experience with locks found in the U.S., and are we talking about a Masterlock padlock, a Kwikset knob cylinder, or other.
Think about any number of deadbolt locks. The plug has to turn in both directions, one way to extend the bolt and the other way to retract the bolt.

The plug of most locks can be turned in either direction, unless the tail piece prevents the movement. Although sometimes the plug will rotate in the opposition direction just enough to hold the top pins in place and allow you to spin the lock to the unlocked position.

Also, just because the plug does turn in the opposite direction, this may not open the lock. But the lock is "picked". If you have picked a lock, and the plug has turned but not in the direction to open the lock, you will need a plug spinner. This is a tool that spins the plug fast enough, in the direction required to unlock the lock, so the top pins stay above the shear line.

On your technique, worrying about binding order is kind of a moot point when raking. The binding order is useful when SPP, not so much when raking. When SPP, you are step by step working the pin stacks to the shear line. When raking, I call it controlled chaos. You are rapidly lifting multiple pin stacks, applying different amounts of tension to the plug, and varying the angle and speed of the pick. When you are having all these actions, going on at the same time, there is no way to worry about the binding order.

[JohnnyWalker]

Hey shadow, thanks for providing the additional information you have provided here. That makes things a lot more clear. As far as using a plug spinner, I've seen them at sites like lockpickshop.com and others, but I have no idea how to use them and I do not own one, either (although I'd like to own one eventually). I think that's a bit over my head right now. Right now I'm having a fair amount of success using the raking method and trying to learn how to SPP a lock. For now I have a good foundation with the information you guys have provided in this thread and some from the other threads I've read here and, so that should keep me busy for a while. Now I just need to practice the techniques and hopefully someday SPP will be second nature to me. Thanks.

- JW