Setting pins on accident?

[PherricOxide]

Hello all! I've just recently gotten started in the hobby (and become a bit addicted to it). I've got a bunch of Master padlocks and a pair of 5 pin Kwikset cylinders that came with a cheap deadbolt. I can open pretty much any lock I have SPP within a couple of minutes, usually less, but I'm trying to get to the point I can really feel what's going on inside instead of just trying to find a binding pin and push it up without knowing what pin I'm on or how close I am to getting them all set. However, I constantly find that the lock opens before I think it should. I'll feel 2 or 3 pins in a 5 pin lock bind and then set them, and then suddenly the lock opens up without me ever setting the remaining pins.

I guess the question is why is this happening. If one pin binds at a time, the other pins should just fall back down when pushed up, right? Is it normal for more than one pin to bind at a time, or a pin to get pushed to/stuck at the sheer line when being poked at even if it doesn't feel like it's binding? Is this just me being clumsy and setting a bunch of pins with the handle of the pick (it's a Southord hook pick)?

[gloves]

Forgive the seemingly foolish question, but can you easily count the pins with the hook pick and do you experience this issue with locks other than the Kwikset?

It'd easily be that 2 pins are not active and hence you open the lock after setting just 3 pins out of 5. Otherwise, you'd be inadvertently pushing pins while moving your pick, it happens specially in locks with the outer pin longer than others (which also act, often coupled with a spool pin, as a bugging feature against manipulation).

Cheers

[Bob Jim Bob]

My advice as someone else who just started: The same thing has been happening for me on my cheapest locks, the Ilco deadbolts. Try getting a slightly used Schlage lock, it will make you work a little more to set the pins. I have a new Schlage I picked once so far, and it was by luck, which is why I suggest a used lock.

The double deadbolt is a great deal, you get two locks.

[PherricOxide]

Forgive the seemingly foolish question, but can you easily count the pins with the hook pick and do you experience this issue with locks other than the Kwikset?

I can count the pins pretty easily, but I do still have the problem of getting a bit lost in the middle/last pins. I usually have to start from either the front or back and then count them one at a time to be sure I know which pin I'm on (feeling the edge of the pick touch them or the change in height as it rolls off them). As my lock collection grows I've noticed it happens more with some locks than others. I have a master #3, for instance, that opens right up when I push the 4th pin to the sheer line. Looking at the key biting I'd guess that the other pins are just getting pushed up enough by the hook's shaft or by accident when I'm getting my pick to the back of the lock. I really want to get a TOK tension tool, it feels like I never have enough room to work without pushing up pins by accident.

It'd easily be that 2 pins are not active and hence you open the lock after setting just 3 pins out of 5.

Interesting, I always assumed all of the pins were "active" in a lock. Do they actually use keypins that are already the correct height to sit at the sheer line with no key inside/manipulation? I guess that would still be useful if someone put a key designed for larger pins, but it seems like it's not a very good security feature...

My advice as someone else who just started: The same thing has been happening for me on my cheapest locks, the Ilco deadbolts.

I picked up a Brinks double deadbolt, it definitely gives some much more satisfying clicks and pops as things set. Now if I could just get the hang of the security pins in it I might actually be able to open it consistently...

[cyrano138]

I picked up a Brinks double deadbolt, it definitely gives some much more satisfying clicks and pops as things set. Now if I could just get the hang of the security pins in it I might actually be able to open it consistently...

I noticed the same thing when I switched to inexpensive Brinks deadbolts (from Kwikset). I'm only a beginner myself, but it seems like the security pins act just like the others at times. Sometimes I get the false set and have to push them up to the real set, and sometimes it seems like they don't act like security pins at all. Maybe I'm being too heavy-handed. Any thoughts on what locks you'll try when you can do those consistently?

Jack

[Bob Jim Bob]

Jack

Take them apart and re-pin them. Good learning experience. I put some short pins behind a longer pin so I have to practice using a long hook.

[cyrano138]

That's a great idea. Thanks for the suggestion!

jack

[PherricOxide]

I noticed the same thing when I switched to inexpensive Brinks deadbolts (from Kwikset). I'm only a beginner myself, but it seems like the security pins act just like the others at times. Sometimes I get the false set and have to push them up to the real set, and sometimes it seems like they don't act like security pins at all. Maybe I'm being too heavy-handed. Any thoughts on what locks you'll try when you can do those consistently?
Jack

I took mine apart and found they both had 2 spool pins. I think the difference in size between the top/bottom and middle is so small that you don't really feel the pins when you push hard enough. I never got any change in the tension wrench like people say you feel with spool pins... The Master 140D padlock I got is the only lock I have that I can actually tell it has security pins, and that's mainly because the 3rd pin won't budge unless I let off the tension.

[3-in-1]

Generally speaking you should not see the full effect of a spool pin until all the straight pins have been set. This is where back turning of the core must occur to get the pin all the way into the upper chamber. As long as one or more straight pins are blocking, you may feel the spool move up part way, then tighten and snap up. On some locks you may not even realize that you have set a spool or for that matter any pin as you move the pick through the lock. It is not always necessary for a pin to have noticeable bind for a set to occur. Most likely this occurs more often in locks where the upper pin chamber is overly large in relation to the pin allowing it to tip and hang up on the core. This would help explain cases where locks seem to open faster than you would expect. It is also not a hard and fast rule that all locks have only one specific binding order. I have on no name cylinder cutaway that I have been able to get 5 different binding sequences to set.

[cyrano138]

And here I thought I was just that good that spool pins meant nothing to me...