Some questions about feedback

[Achyfellow]

Here are some things I have unsuccessfully tried to figure out on my own this last month regarding feedback.

I'm with my practice lock (TE5, a 5 pin tumbler lock with nothing fancy in it except key pin serrations) trying to identify some of the feedback 'signals' I am getting. The basic ones are fairly obvious:

pin does not move (With lock in the 'euro' position, bible below plug): pin is set (or overset but so far that hasn't happened)
pin does not move (With lock in the 'american' position with the bible over the plug): pin is overset
pin moves freely (American position) : Pin is set

The setting in the better cases is also obvious, the pin is binding and when you move it enough it sets and you clearly feel it. But there are some other cases in which I just have no idea what is happening (Well, I can try and guess but that is not working).

For example, once one or two pins are set, two of the remaining pins may not be binding at all, but the last one, instead of clearly being binding it just has this rough feel on it. As in, it's not completely binding, but it's the only pin which offers some resistance to movement. I've been interpreting that as 'not completely binding, but if you move it on place it will eventually bind'. That approach has not worked so far. In fact, when I try to do that, some (or all) of the other pins usually unset. The other pins are not binding at all, so it must have something to do either with that pin or with my picking technique.

Another issue, probably related to the previous one: In some cases, none of the pins are (or feel like) binding. At all. All of them feel loose and offer absolutely no resistance to movement. This has happened in two or three locks I have tried to pick, but not in all of them and certainly not every time, so I don't know if, again, is a manufacturing issue on this particular lock or a problem with the way I am trying to pick it.

Other issue I am concerned with is that this practice lock (With no security pins in) gives insane false sets from time to time. The plug rotates several degrees, even when the pins are not overset. ¿Can this happen due to manufacturing issues? I don't think a normal lock is supposed to do that.

All these issues happen almost every time with this lock (Very rarely with others, if at all). I could simply stop using it and find another one, but I am very curious about why this happens. Any clue will be appreciated

[fgarci03]

Well, without actually looking at the lock, I can't know for sure..

But, I think I know what's going on:

For example, once one or two pins are set, two of the remaining pins may not be binding at all, but the last one, instead of clearly being binding it just has this rough feel on it.

It comes to this:

pin moves freely (American position) : Pin is set

That may not be true.

It might be underset. Basically the body of the driver is stuck in the sheerline, but since it's lifted a little, the keypin moves freely under it. Sometimes, 2 pins bind at once (one less than the other) and you are lifting the one that binds the less because the previous one isn't completely set.

Another issue, probably related to the previous one: In some cases, none of the pins are (or feel like) binding. At all. All of them feel loose and offer absolutely no resistance to movement.

What do you mean? Like when you start picking? Or after you set at least one pin?
If it's after you set a pin, it may be wrongly set for some reason (serrations, etc)... If it's right from the first pin, it may have something to do with the amount of tension you are using... Play with different tension forces.. Just don't break your tools in there

Other issue I am concerned with is that this practice lock (With no security pins in) gives insane false sets from time to time. The plug rotates several degrees, even when the pins are not overset.

I have found this to happen with many locks... Sometimes I'm picking a new lock and I feel a huge false set and think it has spools. After I gut it, I notice it doesn't. I assume it's from bad tolerances and diferent hole diameters. A 1/10th of a mm in difference can result in several degrees of false set. And some pins are a little thiner in the middle, specially if they are cheap. It can be many things, but yes, it does happen sometimes...

[GWiens2001]

If you set a few pins (or even just one), and then the other pins drop, or none of them will bind, you may have overset that last pin. Release tension (maybe just ease off tension) and let that key pin move up (euro-profile) or drop (North American style), then check for binding pins.

Gordon

[Achyfellow]

That may not be true.

It might be underset. Basically the body of the driver is stuck in the sheerline, but since it's lifted a little, the keypin moves freely under it. Sometimes, 2 pins bind at once (one less than the other) and you are lifting the one that binds the less because the previous one isn't completely set.

Oh you are right! I forgot about that possibility. I don't pick locks in that position very often, so I didn't give it much thought.

What do you mean? Like when you start picking? Or after you set at least one pin?
If it's after you set a pin, it may be wrongly set for some reason (serrations, etc)... If it's right from the first pin, it may have something to do with the amount of tension you are using... Play with different tension forces.. Just don't break your tools in there

If you set a few pins (or even just one), and then the other pins drop, or none of them will bind, you may have overset that last pin. Release tension (maybe just ease off tension) and let that key pin move up (euro-profile) or drop (North American style), then check for binding pins.

Gordon

Yes fgarci, I have tried that. Even with too much tension and after setting only the first pin (Which is the front one) I can't fell anything binding. I know for a fact that I am not oversetting or undersetting it since I can just place the key in front of the keyway and see the pin height, and there is nothing wrong with it. The key has no serrations or spools (Except one serration in the key pin), so I don't know why it happens. releasing less tension that the required to reset that first pin does nothing.

I have thought about that it could be oversetting, but it's not very likely. It happens even if I apply extremely light tension and push the pins very slowly to set them (I'm absolutely sure I am not oversetting them), so I'm starting to get out of ideas. It's probably a very simply thing I am overlooking.

I have found this to happen with many locks... Sometimes I'm picking a new lock and I feel a huge false set and think it has spools. After I gut it, I notice it doesn't. I assume it's from bad tolerances and diferent hole diameters. A 1/10th of a mm in difference can result in several degrees of false set. And some pins are a little thiner in the middle, specially if they are cheap. It can be many things, but yes, it does happen sometimes...

I thought it could be that, it surprised me how noticeable it was.

[fgarci03]

Oh you are right! I forgot about that possibility. I don't pick locks in that position very often, so I didn't give it much thought.

Remember that it can also happen when the lock is in Euro position. Will look exactly like a true set or an overset, which is a PITA...

since I can just place the key in front of the keyway and see the pin height, and there is nothing wrong with it.

That is actually pretty clever!


Well, to be honest, it has happened to me and I have no idea what is happening. I agree with you, it's something really simple that we overlook up untill some point, where it just stops happening. I have overcome this issue after picking that lock for a while untill, somehow, I manage to get through it. I don't really think it's a matter of something happening. It's just that every lock is different and we have to get used to each one. I really don't know, and if someone has any input on this, I'd like to know it.

Tell you what, instead of lifting that binding pin, can you find any other binders? Sometimes 2 pins bind at once, and changing the picking order makes things easier...

I thought it could be that, it surprised me how noticeable it was.

Yes it is... weird, but it is