Having trouble picking installed pin tumblers

[jamelisjimi]

I started picking about a week ago and i got a old kwikset lock outta my garage and took all the pins out but one. i got the feel picking that and then began to replace all the pins one by one till i could pick the lock with a feeler pick in like 20 seconds. now heres the problem. when i try to pick installed lock its like i cant feel the pins and i can't feel to push up and jiggle because i cant feel the pins. Are there any suggestions or should i just make a snap gun and cheat??

[dry132]

The best suggestion might be to get a different lock (other than the kwikset) with a different feel, and start with maybe 2 pins in it and work your way up until you get the hang of the new feel. You probably don't want to take apart the installed locks, but finding a similar model to practice on will get you going in the right direction to where you can adapt to any kind of springs or locks. Also, try performing the exercises described in the MIT guide on the installed lock, without trying to pick it, until you can really feel and visualize what is going on in the lock.

For the record, I'm having the exact same problem. I built a "lock tower" out of wood with 4 locks installed in it, and have been slowly upgrading the quality of the locks from first a Faultless (cheaper than a Kwikset, even) to a kwikset, and now on to a schlage. I can pick all the lock-tower locks pretty quickly, but still have yet to get through my front or back doors! My door locks aren't high security ones either, but I think they might have some spool or mushroom pins in them. With enough practice I've been able to feel when all the pins are set in each lock, but identifying false sets isn't very easy yet.


Hope that helps!

[gnoff]

it also helped me (i learned my first lock the same way), to change it around...
ex
1 pin
2 pin....
5pin
then swap the pins around, theres what, about 20 possible combintions with a 5-pin lock? that helped me alot, i diddnt get used to picking the same combo every time.

[gnoff]

actually i think its more like 120 different combinations

5*4*3*2*1=120

so glad i took statistics...lol

[dry132]

120 combinations, but only assuming that no two cuts are the same. Examining all the keys on my keychain, every one has at least one duplicate depth except one key (now that I think about it... that's weird...) On most of my practice locks there are at least 2 depths of the same, one has three! so that makes a grand total of 4*4*3*2*1 = 96 for a single duplicate, or 3*3*3*2*1=54 for a key with 3 of the same depths.

Is it normal to have duplicate depths on keys? Or are my house locks just really weird... I think they're weisers and one Yale.

[digital_blue]

Nope, that's pretty normal. In my job I often have to rekey locks and I have found (at least with weiser - that's the brand we use exclusively) that it would be the exception to find a lock with no duplicate pins in it (ie, all different pin lengths).

db

[Sabin37]

It's not that important but I'm fairly certain that if there were two pins the same length there would be 60 combinations, and if there were three pins the same length there would be 20 combinations.

[dry132]

Sabin, I reckon you're right. I sort of forgot about which order you installed the pins in, and assumed the best-case scenario.

[Varjeal]

You guys are forgetting to add in the "depth" factor. Each position has a possibility of 10 different depths (in Weiser) number 0-9.

Neglecting MACS in a five pin cylinder, it would actually be 10 to the 5th. or 10x10x10x10x10.

[MrB]

In this case, the discussion was about how many unique ways can you repin a lock for picking practice using only the existing pins that it came with.

[Beekeypr]

Most manufacturers have keying standards that they use for stock locks. These standards differ from "systems" that they might supply - say masterkey systems or keyed different systems that are intended for a specific project.

For example, one high profile lock manufacturer doesn't use the three shallowest depths in any stock locks, reserving their use for masterkey systems. This prevents any stock key from actually being used as a masterkey in a factory supplied system.

[Chucklz]

This lock manufacturer wouldnt happen to also have proprietary keying systems named after a mountain, and mountains in general?

[Beekeypr]

Ahhh, the mountains - Paramount, Vesuvious, Rainier . . . oh, and Everest, yeah, that's it.

[Beekeypr]

Ahhh, the mountains - Paramount, Vesuvious, Rainier . . . oh, and Everest, yeah, that's it.

[Mad Mick]

These mountain ranges sure do produce an echo don't they...don't they...don't they...