Still having a problem with spools

[cracksman]

Hi, could use some advice on spool/security pins. I set up a Schlage deadbolt with all spools and set the pins hi-low-hi-low-hi (and a hundred other combos), my problem is it seems hit or miss, sometimes I can pick it, sometimes I can't. I understand the theory behind these pins (Mad MIck made a great animation) but I still can't pick them consistently.

Here is my question put simply as I can. I feel a pin set, go to another one and feel that the cylinder is locked. Go back to the previous pin (obviously a mushroom or spool) raise it, feel the tension wrench reverse, and here is the problem 50% of the time I here a click but don't get the slight rotation of a set pin (slightly clockwise again). I guess what I'm saying is I know when I set one, but half the time the lock opens before I should be done, the other half I think I've got it and I miss-set one. I know I'm not making myself clear because I'm not clear myself...any thoughts would be helpful

p.s. 99% of my picks won't even fit this keyway and pick properly, got a set of Falle-Safe on the way, peterson slim gem and other no help, is there a secret set of picks I don't know about?

Thanks in advance for any input

[Ezer]

When learning new pins or new locks you want to start out with 1 pin then 2 and so on, and the high low bitting is for when you've got something down and want it harder, not for when learning.

If your picks don't fit in a standard Schlage keyway, you might want to try a different placement of your tension wrench. I have no trouble using my standard sized SO picks in them.

[Chrispy]

I find that using a 1-2 mm tension wrench can still turn the plug, but also allows the pick into the keyway when you have a really tight fit. I think my smallest wrench is a 1.5 mm allen key mod. It works fine and fits all except the larger locks, which I use a standard wrench anyway.

As for the spools, it's always hit and miss from lock to lock. Only practice will improve. Ezer's right, dismantle, re-pin, and work up.

[cracksman]

Thanks Ezer,
That is my problem, I have progressed pin by pin. I can set the lock in a matter of seconds or minutes (no more than about 5) but, my problem is not so much picking as being confident that I set a particular pin. As far as Southord goes I have literally over 50 in front of me and only 2 are usefull (wrench well out of the way) This is a new Schlage Maximum Security (best level 2 security you can buy according to the box) deadbolt, I threw in an extra spool cause it was 4/5. The keyway will not accept any standard Southord, only slimline (by accept I mean able to allow full compression of all springs from back to front)

p.s. I figured out my problem, but it was a mental one, I expected a bigger "snap" for some reason and wasn't feeling for the rotation like I should have.

P.s.s. Still I would like to get more perspectives if anyone has them. Love to see some pics of the picks your using Ezer, maybe I can modify mine.

[Ezer]

Except for Raimundo's set, all I've been using until today was standard SO picks. I did hand file one of my standard hooks down, once I started getting into more restrictive keyways.

Today I got in my HPC dental and 2000 sets, and now I wonder how I've lived without them. It's crazy how much roomier the keyways seem now, even compared to my filed down hook, after all this time using the SO picks.

Does the Schlage you're working on have a SC1 keyway? If it does, you should still have a decent amount of room to work with. I use a tension tool like this alot. http://www.lockpicks.com/index.asp?Page ... ProdID=239 It's great wrench for placing at the top of the keyway when you need the room. I filed down some width off one end to make it easier to place in some keyways.

[Mad Mick]

I threw in an extra spool cause it was 4/5.

This could be part of your problem. Even with the key, I think you would probably be experiencing alignment issues (difficult key insertion/extraction) here. A standard pin is normally used to keep the plug aligned porperly. The act of moving the pick back and forth in the keyway could be causing the plug to move in abnormal ways.

Imagine a loose-fitting retainer on the rear of the plug...forward pressure on the plug wouldn't be much of a problem as the plug will butt against the cylinder, but the pick dragging on unset pins on the outward stroke (more so when raking) would make the plug move outwards, causing the spools to tilt in the stacks.

[zekeo]

I'm working on the same lock with standard SO picks. I kept 4 spools and one normal one in there. I'm having similar issues--sometimes I can get it open, but I'm always a little surprised when I do, not like the normal progression I feel when I'm picking non-security pins. I figure I just have to keep working at it and develop the feel. In a way, it's like learning all over again.

[Ben WV]

You might notice three pieces of feedback on a spool pin like that. THe first is the false set, the second is the false middle giving way to the fat bottom, and the third is the actual breaking of the stack at the shear line. I actually went to the hardware store and bought the same deadbolt for practice. I had no luck at all on the five pinstacks, so I reduced it to three and it was very instructive (but too easy). Putting in four makes it much more difficult, though I got it open a number of times. ANd I haven't managed it once yet with all five in.

The problem I have is that I get it down to the very last pinstack with all the others at shear. BUt when that last pinstack moves from the false middle to the fat lower end, all the other stacks fall down (clickity click click click). Very frusterating.

If I could find a more gentle way of lifting the unset pins, I'm sure it would solve the problem. That abrupt transition is what causes the others to fall I think. BUt, of course, too little torque causes the same problem of stacks not staying set. It's hard for me to imagine that some people have no trouble at all with these kind of locks (except I know it's true). hehe

[Mad Mick]

Ben: Sounds like your picking order needs to be 'adjusted'. It is not uncommon to have to repick pins that have reset. If all the pins are resetting however, it's likely that this last pin is not actually the correct last pin.

HTH.

[cracksman]

Mad Mick wrote:

This could be part of your problem. Even with the key, I think you would probably be experiencing alignment issues (difficult key insertion/extraction) here. A standard pin is normally used to keep the plug aligned properly. The act of moving the pick back and forth in the keyway could be causing the plug to move in abnormal ways.

Your right Mick, thanks. The way I had it pinned the middle of at least one of the spools seems to have sat at the shear line, which made it feel odd.

On a related question, when I hit a spool, I get that exaggerated turn. If I am imagining this correctly, that means I must have set (or overset) any normal pins. Is this correct? If so, could you identify the normal pins and use them to "show" you the security pins first (as I find they usually drop back after I set a spool) and set normal ones last? I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear, but I am having some success with it

[Mad Mick]

Take out the plug, leaving the key pins in the chambers and then remove the drivers from the cylinder, keeping them in order. Place the drivers on top of the key pins which are still in the plug. You will probably see that the reduced diameter of all the spools are at/almost at the shearline, but at differing heights along the length. The solid pin is the one which will bind up the plug the most, due to it's diameter, but once this pin is set, then you are up against the spools.

when I hit a spool, I get that exaggerated turn. If I am imagining this correctly, that means I must have set (or overset) any normal pins

If the normal pin is over set, it would be just the same as being not set at all. The full diameter of the pin (key pin this time) is still across the shear line. It's pretty much a certainty that the normal pin is set correctly, if the plug is allowed to turn enough to false set a spool.

could you identify the normal pins and use them to "show" you the security pins first

If you've repinned the lock yourself, you already know where the solid pin is (usually the first chamber). A single solid pin is going to be the most-bound pin when applying tension...this doesn't mean that it has to set first though. Test the other pins to see if any of them try to turn the wrench back...set those first.

HTH.
If any of this is incorrect, someone more knowlegeable will correct it.

[raimundo]

if by exaggerated turn you mean in the direction of the tension, your halfway there, next, lighten up on the tension and push that same place up and feel the tensor go in reverse, its doing this that will set the spool pin at the shear line, also, you do not need any more tension than what you used when the plug reversed against the tensor, pick the whole lock that way from the beginning.

[cracksman]

Thanks guys,

I've got a good feel for spools now, I decided to set up my cylinder with 4 normal pins and 1 spool, then worked my way up to 3 spools and 2 normal. My problem now is that I find I keep unsetting pins while setting others, I have not systematically tried all the combinations, ie. wrote down the pin combo order, but it seems like "pick the one that binds" does not always hold true, am I missing something? Is it possible my tension is too light?

[franko452000]

what you call a man with a pick up a horse's ass? an almish locksmith. franko