Key ID Help

[smokingman]

The key may have been cut with a shim under it so that duplicates would not work unless also cut with a shim under it.

What I meant to say but more clearly is , we used to copy the original key with a shim under the key and a shim under the blank, then have the owner put the original in a safe place
and use the copy.
If someone got their working key and tried to duplicate it, it would not work,
because they would not know to put a shim under the blank before duplicating it.

If you shim both is it not the same as no shim? If I raise a key by .015 and the blank by .015 the machine will cut both to the same depth as if I had no shim under each.

It's the same until you try to copy the key without shimming the new blank,
the copy will be too shallow and not work, but they won't know why.
The person who tries to make an unauthorized copy does not know that the keys were raised ,
so if they take it somewhere and get a copy , the blank used there will not be raised and therefore not work.
I have done this for several customers during my working years and it's a reliable, cheap way of preventing
unauthorized copies.
Just don't let anyone know what you are doing and how thick the shims are and you are good.

[tomasfuk]

...it's a reliable, cheap way of preventing unauthorized copies...

...and an easy way of forcing the customer to exchange the worn-out lock soon

[Sinifar]

Not to beat this to death, that is a SC-1. Having said that note the lower stop is further back. Gauge your keys off the top shoulder. ALSO note it is "DND" stock. Most of these are common keyways, so don't go looking for something exotic. Even Kustom Key has quite a few of the common keyways, along with the more restrictive ones. However, those would stand out for an experienced smith, and very few smiths have Kustom coin their own stock, (we did).....

TWO - Mike the cuts. Determine the actual cut depth. then you will know if the key was shimmed, or filed on the bottom, or not on the original key.

Since you may not have the ability to cut by code from the depth, here are the Schlage depths as cut - 0 - .335 / 1 .320 / 2 - .302 / 3 - .290 / 4 - .275 / 5 - .260 / 6 - .245 / 7 - .230 / 8 - .215 / 9 - .200.

The other thing to watch for is "off manufacturer" cutting. I have done this as many other smiths have. For example, Yale can be hard to pin at .019 drops. So we just cut is at the regular Yale .206 shoulder to first center, then the .164 between centers. BUT use Schlage depths. Now you have a Yale key which works smooth, with the pins I carry in the van. Trust me it works, and it is fast and I don't have to jiggle the pins between the ,003 and ,005 to get "close enough" for Yale depths to work smooth as glass.

SInifar

[1mrchristopher]

Great words Sinifar, and good to see you on here!

[cledry]

It's the same until you try to copy the key without shimming the new blank,
the copy will be too shallow and not work, but they won't know why.
The person who tries to make an unauthorized copy does not know that the keys were raised ,
so if they take it somewhere and get a copy , the blank used there will not be raised and therefore not work.
I have done this for several customers during my working years and it's a reliable, cheap way of preventing
unauthorized copies.
Just don't let anyone know what you are doing and how thick the shims are and you are good.

Sorry, you are losing me on this one. Anyone care to explain how shimming both jaws changes anything? For example my flat steel key machine has a built in shim. If I cut a key with the shim under each key and then cut a copy without the shim under each; all three keys will be the same within cutting tolerances.

[GWiens2001]

Have to agree with Cledry. If one of the keys is shimmed, can see it working as described. If both are shimmed equally, then there might as well be no shim at all.

Gordon

[Raymond]

This makes perfect sense to me.

I agree also with both Cledry and Gwiens2001.

If the trick key ONLY is shimmed and the working original not shimmed when cutting the trick key, then the unknowing duplicator can never make a correctly working key without taking the lock apart or impressioning. It must be made known that the trick key will NOT work the lock. It is only to be used as a pattern key when duplicates are required. The trick key will be shimmed and used as the pattern to make new working keys that are now the correct working dimensions.

If some not-entitled person borrows a working key and has it duplicated, it will work. The trick key is only intended to be available to make the working duplicate from.

[smokingman]

Ok, I might have not explained the whole procedure correctly,I haven't used a key machine in many years , so I apologize for that.
I am not very good at explaining things anyway.
But it can be done.
It does have something to do with shimming one key so that un-shimmed copies won't work.
But I definitely remember it being done at a shop I worked at during the 1980's,
so it's got to be an old method.
Again, sorry for the brain fart.

[Sheriff66]

Thanks for all of the replies. I have learned a lot from this one post. Unfortunately, some of the info is a little above my amateur ability. Guess they will have to get a real smith to do it!

[Zenophryk]

Don't give up so easily. geesh. It's a cool problem that needs solving.

Have you tried comparing the original to the copy with a pair of calipers?
it's still possible that your copier is a little out of wack. Even though you've made other keys that have worked. it could be a question of adding tolerances.

if the "original" you have (which is not a Schlage original) is actually a copy of an original and is off a few thousandths (say in the + direction) it may still be well within the range that will operate the lock. And if your copier is off by a few thousandths in the + direction then you are still likely going to be within tolerance to operate a lock if the original is dead on or even off by a few thou in the - direction.
but if you copy an "original" that is off in the + and your copier is off in the + then your copy will be off by the total amount. And that could be past the tolerance level to operate the lock.
Does any of that jabber make sense?
a set of $10 calipers will allow you to check things. And they are just handy to have. And can help you understand what's happening better.

forget all that shimming nonsense and stuff.

-Zenophryk

[tomasfuk]

...a set of $10 calipers will allow you to check things. And they are just handy to have. And can help you understand what's happening better.

forget all that shimming nonsense and stuff.

Exactly!

Locksmiths in my country use to cut the copies always deeper, by 0.1-0.15 mm (0.004-0.006") at least.
The original key works fine.
The first copy works fine too.
The second copy (copy of the first copy) works but not smoothly, it damages the cylinder quickly. The cylinder still works but is no more secure, and will be worn-out soon.
Everybody is happy. The customer thinks that it must be so and usually has no calipers. The locksmith has more orders, the manufacturer sells more cylinders.
If I need a perfect key, I must order a shallow cut and finalize the key manually with file

[phoneman85]

That is an ingenious technique, and if they knew it was shimmed, but not the thickness, they would still have no luck. Interesting form of key control

[billdeserthills]

That is an ingenious technique, and if they knew it was shimmed, but not the thickness, they would still have no luck. Interesting form of key control

Actually if you grip the keys in the middle, or another similar place they will copy correctly. It is only because You insist on cutting them while they are
resting on their bottoms that You are having a problem.