Rekeying an S&G 4100 without original key

[BlueLock]

Can anyone tell me how or point me to a source for re-keying an S&G 4100 safe deposit lock if the original key has been lost?



Per the manual, the procedure is easy if you have the original key. However, the original key was lost some time ago. I assume it can be done by disassembly, manually putting the pawls in place then completing the procedure with the new key, but figured I would check here before attempting to do so. I have a customer with several lost keys in a multi-up safe box pass-thru configuration. Access to the 4100 from backside is easy enough to remove the lock from the door, and replacement of the unit is the "easy but expensive" path. If I can re-key the 3 units with lost keys, I can save my customer at least $100 versus replacement units.

[Safecrackin Sammy]

If you have the capability to code cut those keys, then you can sight read, code cut, then change. If not, manually reset the levers and change.

[stratmando]

Not a Safety Deposit Lock person, but have a Blitz Key Machine. They have a slot cutter, the card would provide alignment of cuts, the Levers have numbers on them, same numbers would be same depth of cut.
Would think they make depth keys for these. Try each and see which depth cut aligns fence with the Gate.
Then cut with the machine, The numbers on levers may be same as on card. Would think so.
Think it could be done by hand. First mark a blank where each lever falls, then cut each 1 by 1 with Hacksaw blade til fence aligns with gates.
I have a couple myself, would like to try with.
A Locksmith that works with these should be able to make a Key Quickly. Not sure about Cheaply

[GWiens2001]

Think it could be done by hand. First mark a blank where each lever falls, then cut each 1 by 1 with Hacksaw blade til fence aligns with gates.
I have a couple myself, would like to try with.
A Locksmith that works with these should be able to make a Key Quickly. Not sure about Cheaply

I have done this a few times, except I used flat needle files to make the kits.

Gordon

[BlueLock]

Thanks all. I have not been able to find any depth keys for these. Could be because there is no spacing at all between cuts on these keys, so careful attention must be paid as to the spacing from tip to each cut. Fortunately, the customer has a few keys, including the original key (with stamped bitting numbers on it) for the 4440 lock on the back door lock that was damaged after a forced entry that destroyed the casting for that lock. I can "easily" measure the existing key and make some depth keys. I would love to have a Blitz right now since I would not need to measure anything, just cut keys to whatever bitting desired. But Blitz machines are kinda spendy. My trusty Foley-Belsaw can cut accurate depth slots with the best of 'em, but it does take a bit of time and care. Currently thinking to invest some time to make odd/even depth keys e.g. make cuts for levers 1-3-5-7 only on one key and levers 2-4-6 on the next key to ensure the tip to cut is right every time using the "standard" duplicating method. Then I would not need to measure each cut from the tip or depth when making any new keys. Of course, I could take the time to finally install the 2nd mic on my machine... Then again, using a flat needle file might be the way to go to make an "original" key using a brass blank. I will know more how I plan to proceed if/when I disassemble the first one in a week or so.

[billdeserthills]

This lock comes with 2 keys & only costs $26
https://www.lockmasters.com/sg-4100-ser ... h-sg411312

If you plan to work on these in the future, a keying kit is fairly inexpensive
https://www.lockmasters.com/bulleyes-b4 ... lkmb400gmk

Then you could rekey the lock to their key or to a set of pre-cut keys

[BlueLock]

Thanks Bill,

I have that exact item in my "to buy" list along with the Bullseye B-447 for the back door. I still need to get back to the customer and measure the nose on both doors because the 4100 series has 4 different nose lengths. (BTW, Anixter is $24 for those, but they do not have the B447). No plans to work with these much in the future, but do plan to ensure this customer is always in good shape, so who knows. They have one B447 in the back (formerly S&G 4440 single nose - discontinued) and 14 or 16 of the Renter 4100 locks. Of the 4100's, 1 is "broken" and 3 have "lost keys." The 4440 is damaged beyond repair. It will actually be the most cost effective to replace all 5 instead of the time needed to make depth keys, fiddle around with levers, etc. Assuming they want to replace them all, and that they do not want to keep the old locks, then I will have plenty of levers to play with in the future For this customer, "the cheapest option" is always preferred, even if it takes a lot longer to do. Thinking it through, replacement will be cheaper than trying to re-key without the original, since they still need new keys made from scratch, or buy pre-made keys: https://www.lockmasters.com/sg-4500-series-random-cut-pair-of-renters-keys-sg4500rk

[BlueLock]

Update - I had a chance to remove and get a closer look at the back door lock... It is actually a S&G 4440 with the Guard Nose milled off... The B447 seems to be the best option for replacement. Sure, I could buy another 4440 and swap the plates, but that would be more work. Of course, it will be the same amount of work if I swap the levers so that they can continue to use their original key. Anyone work with both Bullseye and S&G that can provide a comparison on the quality of each version?

Related question: Has anyone ever tried to remove a S&G 4100 lock (picture in OP) from the backside without opening the door? I can reach them from the back to remove the 3 mounting screws, but am not so sure I can manipulate the nose out of the hole and the engaged bolt, too. Fortunately, there is a spacer between the lock and the 1/4" thick door which just might give enough wiggle room to get it out. This is definitely the desired option over drilling out the nose. Advice in advance would be appreciated before I make another trip out there.

[BlueLock]

Related question: Has anyone ever tried to remove a S&G 4100 lock (picture in OP) from the backside without opening the door? I can reach them from the back to remove the 3 mounting screws, but am not so sure I can manipulate the nose out of the hole and the engaged bolt, too. Fortunately, there is a spacer between the lock and the 1/4" thick door which just might give enough wiggle room to get it out. This is definitely the desired option over drilling out the nose. Advice in advance would be appreciated before I make another trip out there.

Answering my own question. Looking back at my photos, for this installation, the answer is yes. There is no harp or other back-side obstruction for the bolt. Removing the 3 screws on the backside will allow the 4100 to be pushed back into the safe without any obstruction.

[billdeserthills]

Related question: Has anyone ever tried to remove a S&G 4100 lock (picture in OP) from the backside without opening the door? I can reach them from the back to remove the 3 mounting screws, but am not so sure I can manipulate the nose out of the hole and the engaged bolt, too. Fortunately, there is a spacer between the lock and the 1/4" thick door which just might give enough wiggle room to get it out. This is definitely the desired option over drilling out the nose. Advice in advance would be appreciated before I make another trip out there.

Answering my own question. Looking back at my photos, for this installation, the answer is yes. There is no harp or other back-side obstruction for the bolt. Removing the 3 screws on the backside will allow the 4100 to be pushed back into the safe without any obstruction.

Yes, absolutely-- Once the hold down screws are out, the door will open

[BlueLock]

Thanks Bill for confirming.

*Headslap* Of course the door will swing open! Nothing is holding it anymore. I was thinking the lock would need to be pushed back in first. Assuming customer wants to replace them all, this might actually be relatively quick and painless...

[BlueLock]

Follow-up - I finally got all of the parts together, made a few duplicate keys (for when the originals get lost) and swapped out all of the locks out yesterday. Other than the 18" reach from the back to unscrew the 3 screws holding the locks on, everything went smoothly.

Just as Bill mentioned above, upon removing the 3 screws, the door was easy to open. Two of the locks just fell into the box. The other two needed a light poke on the nose. Easy-peasy and done.

Now to find the darned little bond boxes...

[BlueLock]

2nd followup to answer my original question...

This morning, I disassembled one of the old S&G 4100s removed from the doors, and they are actually not too bad to re-key without an original key. It takes two tools and a bit of care and manipulation, but once the tricks are figured out, it really does not take all that long to re-key them to an existing key. It does require a near complete disassembly, though. The mechanism is pretty clever as to how these are re-keyed from a working key to a new key.