Replacing vintage Sargent deadbolt

[royrogers]

Hello.

I have a vintage Sargent deadbolt I drill-out last night because my wife's key broke off, and I couldn't get it out.

I wasn't too worried, figuring I'd just replace the lock with something more up to date.

When I disassembled the unit, though, I found an unconventional (at least by today's standards) prep on the door, and lock configuration.

The outside lock cylinder has a drive bar that connects to the inside thumb turn, which has a geared mechanism that spins a separate square shaft (going through the small hole in the door pic) which moves the bolt.

Due to the size and spacing of the holes, I can't really drill this out to 2-1/8" and install a new lock without doing some patching or installing a wrap-around "thing."

I tried finding a used or NOS unit on eBay that would allow me to swap this out but no luck.

Anyone have a more elegant solution?

I tried calling three of the oldest locksmith shops in town but non of them have any old locks they could sell me, at least none matching the description I was providing.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[cheerIO]

Oh what a shame to destroy such a nice old lock.

Can you post a pic of the plug that you drilled out and the tailpiece that was on it. Maybe someone has a cylinder that would work for you.

In the future you could try purchasing some key extractors; little thin picks or screw type pieces of metal that are designed to fit past the key and grab on so that you don't have to drill out nice old hardware.

[jeffmoss26]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[royrogers]

Oh what a shame to destroy such a nice old lock.

Can you post a pic of the plug that you drilled out and the tailpiece that was on it. Maybe someone has a cylinder that would work for you.

In the future you could try purchasing some key extractors; little thin picks or screw type pieces of metal that are designed to fit past the key and grab on so that you don't have to drill out nice old hardware.

Here are a few more pics. But you can see that the damage I did with the drill was substantial. I even drilled into the inside (thumb) portion of the deadbolt, as you can see from my pics.

BTW, I went to the hardware store to see if they had any key extractors, was told no. So I did some googling and people said to try scroll saw blades. I bought some and broke an end off one and still couldn't get the key to budge. Part of that is likely due to the fact that I pushed the key in too far when I was trying to get it out with a jewelers screwdriver. So I biffed that, too.

I feel like a complete idiot. I should have broken the glass.

The shaft of the cylinder is 1-1/8" in diameter and the lip grows to 1-3/8". The shaft is 7/8" long to the back of the lip, and the lip adds another 1/8" (so overall, 1" long).

[cheerIO]

Ok, that part that is in your hand is called the Cylinder.

The piece that the key went in, the one you drilled out. Technically that is/was the Plug. On the back of the plug was the tail piece. When you turn the key, the plug turns, which turns the tail piece, which actuates the lock.

Got any pictures of the plug and the back of it? I have some old cylinders, but don't see a Sargent. You may be able to get a similar cylinder and if you can fab the tail piece long enough and in the correct orientation it would do the same job.

Send the pictures though so we can have a look.

[dll932]

Ultimately you could install a wraparound plate and put in a regular deadbolt. You'd need a drilling jig and holesaws, which you can get at Home Cheapo.

[royrogers]

Ok, that part that is in your hand is called the Cylinder.

The piece that the key went in, the one you drilled out. Technically that is/was the Plug. On the back of the plug was the tail piece. When you turn the key, the plug turns, which turns the tail piece, which actuates the lock.

Got any pictures of the plug and the back of it? I have some old cylinders, but don't see a Sargent. You may be able to get a similar cylinder and if you can fab the tail piece long enough and in the correct orientation it would do the same job.

Send the pictures though so we can have a look.

The tailpiece is shavings, I'm afraid. There is nothing left except what I've pictured.

[billdeserthills]

I actually have one of those sargent cylinders, with the square tailpiece in my shop. I bought it new from an old locksmith who retired in the 70's
If You want it and I can find it the charge would be $20 shipped
I don't know the key section though...

[royrogers]

I actually have one of those sargent cylinders, with the square tailpiece in my shop. I bought it new from an old locksmith who retired in the 70's
If You want it and I can find it the charge would be $20 shipped
I don't know the key section though...

Just to be clear, the cylinder has a more conventional rectangular drive piece, and the inside "thumb turn" has a slot for the rectangular drive and a square tailpiece which moves the bolt.

Can you check and see what you have?

My cylinder is 1" overall length, and 1-1/8" in diameter.

If you've got a match I'm in for the $20. In fact, if you can toss a couple of screws in there (one of mine is bent) I can go $25.

[jeffmoss26]

It looks like a standard Sargent rim cylinder but since the plug is gone it's hard to tell. I have lots of them in different finishes and sizes.

[royrogers]

It looks like a standard Sargent rim cylinder but since the plug is gone it's hard to tell. I have lots of them in different finishes and sizes.

This is pretty much just a rim lock cylinder, it has (had) a steel tailpiece that fit into the interior thumb screw slot you can see in the picture.

If the tailpiece I get is too long I can shorten it. If it is too thick, I can thin it. If it is too short, I'm screwed. But noway would it be too short because the original likely extended past the cylinder a scant 3/4".

I stopped by my neighborhood lock store and they guy said he didn't have one. He mentioned something else the guy at the hardware store indicated, which I think is incorrect.

Both of them mentioned I needed a cylinder with a lazy cam, so it could be turned even if the key wasn't installed.

Well, this interior thumb turn is an interesting device. I can turn the thumb turn and the bit the tailpiece would stick into doesn't turn, but the square piece connected to the thumb turn does. Now, if I use a screwdriver to turn the piece the cylinder's tailpiece would fit into, the thumb turn DOES turn, along with the square piece that that fits into the bolt.

So what I'm saying is this thumb turn is special, I think it doesn't require a special lazy cam cylinder at all.

But I know very little about locks, much less than you guys. In fact, by this afternoon I've learned more about locks than I thought I'd ever know. They're fascinating.

Ace hardware had a cylinder but the guy said it wouldn't work because the key HAS to be in it for it to be turned. But now that I know this about this thumb turn, I don't think that is a problem. Yet, I think the Ace unit may have been a tad longer, and I'm not sure if the screws were in the right position.

So I probably would be better off just sourcing a Sargent.

BTW, thanks for all the help. I know I clobbered this thing, you guys have every right to roll your eyes at the newbie with a drill. And maybe you are, but you're still helping and it is appreciated.

[billdeserthills]

I actually have one of those sargent cylinders, with the square tailpiece in my shop. I bought it new from an old locksmith who retired in the 70's
If You want it and I can find it the charge would be $20 shipped
I don't know the key section though...

Just to be clear, the cylinder has a more conventional rectangular drive piece, and the inside "thumb turn" has a slot for the rectangular drive and a square tailpiece which moves the bolt.

Can you check and see what you have?

My cylinder is 1" overall length, and 1-1/8" in diameter.

If you've got a match I'm in for the $20. In fact, if you can toss a couple of screws in there (one of mine is bent) I can go $25.

I'll see about finding it in the morning, I always wondered what it fit?

[Squelchtone]

I actually have one of those sargent cylinders, with the square tailpiece in my shop. I bought it new from an old locksmith who retired in the 70's
If You want it and I can find it the charge would be $20 shipped
I don't know the key section though...

Just to be clear, the cylinder has a more conventional rectangular drive piece, and the inside "thumb turn" has a slot for the rectangular drive and a square tailpiece which moves the bolt.

Can you check and see what you have?

My cylinder is 1" overall length, and 1-1/8" in diameter.

If you've got a match I'm in for the $20. In fact, if you can toss a couple of screws in there (one of mine is bent) I can go $25.

I'll see about finding it in the morning, I always wondered what it fit?

bill, is your cylinder's tailpiece the multi section break off to the correct length type or is it the square shaft? The square shaft was for FOX "police style" multi point lock (as far as I know)

In this case a regular series 34 Sargent rim cylinder with lazy tailpiece will work because it mates to the plate the OP has. that plate has a gear drive inside that goes to the square shaft that goes into the lower hole in his door and then actuates the mortised mechanism. (Just making sure we're on the same page here, because it sorta sounds like you might have a cylinder with a square shaft, not the flat break off pre-scored typical rim cylinder tail piece)

here'a s FOX lock taipiece (square shaft) http://www.reisshardware.com/index.php? ... ts_id=4830

here's a normal tailpiece on a rim cylinder: http://guide.alibaba.com/shop/us-lock-u ... 71306.html

OP do you need to have a Sargent cylinder or can it be generic or another brand? I think you just need a 1 inch long rim cylinder with lazy tailpiece. That should be easier to find on ebay or amazon.

Squelchtone

[jeffmoss26]

Here are a couple:

[royrogers]

OP do you need to have a Sargent cylinder or can it be generic or another brand? I think you just need a 1 inch long rim cylinder with lazy tailpiece. That should be easier to find on ebay or amazon.

Squelchtone

The only concern is where the screw holes are located, mine are slightly above center. If they're all like that, a generic or some other brand should be fine.