Antique Italian auto door lock replacement pins

[kindacreeky]

I have been restoring a 1960 Triumph Italia for many years. This is one of 329 hand built autos made by Vignale in Torino, Italy. The door and trunk locks are not marked. This car is Vignale #184 and the former owner had lost the keys. Recently, I successfully picked and disassembled the door and trunk lock. The lock is a normal 4-pin tumbler but has an extra set of cap-type push pins that ride along the smooth top of the key. As near as I can figure, these pins wedge slightly in the top part of the key channel of the cylinder plug if the lock was trying to be picked without a key. The push pins for the bottom pins are also are cap-type with the spring fitting inside. I acquired key blanks from a Jensen Interceptor auto that other owners found to be correct. I hand filed a key to fit the door lock, reassembled the lock and it worked good. It would not work in the trunk lock (but it should). I later determined that the door lock had enough wear that the new key that I made would not work in the trunk lock. I disassembled the trunk lock and filed down the problem pins, reassembled and now both locks work fine with my home-made key. It occurred to me that I should replace the worn bottom pins in both locks and re-file the key while I am at it. The old pins measure 0.0965" outside diameter. The cylinder bores for the pins measures 0.099" inside diameter. I have searched on-line and have found 0.095" diameter Abus pins, but nothing closer to the pin bore size. Also, have found no cap-type push pins or the tiny springs that fit inside the push pins (just in case I lose one). If the pins were originally 2.5mm diameter, that would be .0984" and would fit nicely in the cylinder bores.

Does anybody know if any European locks ever used 2.5mm diameter pins? If so, sources?

If I cannot find these or anything closer, would the 0.095" Abus pins work OK?

How about possible sources for these tiny cap-type push pins and springs?

Incidentally: My father (b.1913) took a correspondence course in locksmithing in about 1929 while working for a Chevrolet dealership in Nashville. They needed someone to make keys and get into cars with lost keys. He also picked the locker locks at his high school at the end of term for lost keys and locks left on for 5 cents each. I grew up with him teaching me about locks.

[Squelchtone]

I noticed this is posted in Ask Beginner Hobby Lock Picking Questions.

Please help us keep the forum organized, and reduce moderator team work load by posting in relevant areas.

We do not normally talk about fixing automotive locks on this forum, but I will move your post to This Old Lock to see if anyone can answer your question.

Squelchtone

[kindacreeky]

Thanks, I did not know where it should go. As I am an interested beginner, I felt that was best. Thanks for moving it. I have owned and worked on this car since 1985. I am in touch with many other Italia owners that have the same questions. So any help is appreciated.

[Squelchtone]

Thanks, I did not know where it should go. As I am an interested beginner, I felt that was best. Thanks for moving it. I have owned and worked on this car since 1985. I am in touch with many other Italia owners that have the same questions. So any help is appreciated.

Lucky for you one of the admins on the forum, femurat, is from Italy near Torino, and I believe may have the resources or know some locksmiths in Italy who might be able to point you in the right direction.


Is the blank you found to fit the B62DR / F70T ? Do your lock cylinder faces have any codes stamped on them such as FS 900 or anything like that, I believe I saw you said they are not marked. Do you think the lock cylinders are original to the car?

This document http://www.carlocks.com/public/catalog/ ... 0locks.pdf seems to suggest the 2000 model all years used the MG1 key blank.

Could you post a photo of your cylinder? And just to verify, you believe your lock is pin tumbler, not wafer tumbler, correct?

Thanks,
Squelchtone

[femurat]

Hi, I do know one expert, but he's very busy. Post some pictures so I can show them to him and see if he can help.

Cheers

[kindacreeky]

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This car has a Triumph TR3 chassis. But the body and all of it fittings are Italian. Therefore, the locks are Italian. They might be common to 1955-62 Maserati, Lancia or Ferrari which were similarly hand built by the Carrozaria. The lock has nothing printed on it.

[Squelchtone]

I just occurred to me that a friend recently sent me a picture of some Italia keys. The VIRO key is the door key. I looked on line and sure enough, VIRO is still a lock manufacturer in Italy. There is no guarantee that this is an original key, but it is from a very low mile example of the car.


I copied this from my original post over in This Old Lock. I am a beginner.
I have been restoring a 1960 Triumph Italia for many years. This is one of 329 hand built autos made by Vignale in Torino, Italy. The door and trunk locks are not marked. This car is Vignale #184 and the former owner had lost the keys. Recently, I successfully picked and disassembled the door and trunk lock. The lock is a normal 4-pin tumbler but has an extra set of cap-type push pins that ride along the smooth top of the key. The push pins for the bottom pins are also are cap-type with the spring fitting inside. I acquired key blanks from a Jensen Interceptor auto that other owners found to be correct. I hand filed a key to fit the door lock, reassembled the lock and it worked good. It would not work in the trunk lock (but it should). I later determined that the door lock had enough wear that the new key that I made would not work in the trunk lock. I disassembled the trunk lock and filed down the problem pins, reassembled and now both locks work fine with my home-made key. It occurred to me that I should replace the worn bottom pins in both locks and re-file the key while I am at it. The old pins measure 0.0965" outside diameter. (originally likely larger) The cylinder bores for the pins measures 0.099" inside diameter. I have searched on-line and have found 0.095" diameter Abus pins, but nothing closer to the pin bore size. Also, have found no cap-type push pins or the tiny springs that fit inside the push pins (just in case I lose one). If the pins were originally 2.5mm diameter, that would be .0984" and would fit nicely in the cylinder bores.
The original keys for this lock says ART on one side and Torino on the other side. So maybe the lock manufacturer?

1) Does anybody know if any European locks ever used or possibly still use 2.5mm diameter pins? If so, sources?

2) If I cannot find these or anything closer, would the 0.095" Abus pins work OK?

3) How about possible sources for these tiny cap-type push pins and springs?

Incidentally: My father (b.1913) took a correspondence course in locksmithing in about 1929 while working for a Chevrolet dealership in Nashville. They needed someone to make keys and get into cars with lost keys. He also picked the locker locks at his high school at the end of term for lost keys and locks left on for 5 cents each. I grew up with him teaching me about locks. (and me trying to learn to pick them)
kindacreeky
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[Squelchtone]

I googled chiave (italian for key) ART Torino and came up with these original Ferrarri key blanks for $249 dollars.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/150401269476

Here are some CT5529 key blanks that look like a match for the ART Torino key blanks, and the website mentions that they were used in the Jensen Interceptor as well as Maserati and Ferrari
https://interceptor.org/ct5529-door-key-blank/

[femurat]

Great find, Squelchtone. I think he's looking for pins, not for key blanks.
Am I right, kindacreeky?

I should meet an Italian car locks expert next weekend. I'll show him this thread and report back.

Cheers

[Squelchtone]

Great find, Squelchtone. I think he's looking for pins, not for key blanks.
Am I right, kindacreeky?

I should meet an Italian car locks expert next weekend. I'll show him this thread and report back.

Cheers

Thanks femurat! I saw somewhere that some of these door and trunk pin tumbler locks may be made by CISA as well, maybe they have pins small enough to work.

Cheers

Squelchtone

[kindacreeky]

yes, I have some blanks. They are the same as the Jensen Interceptor. That car was originally made in the same factory in Italy. do you guys think that the CCL/Olympus or the ABUS pins with .095" diameter would work ok? I am measuring 0.0965" diameter of the old pins in this lock now. The bores for the pins measure 0.099" as best I can measure.

I have both door and trunk locks working now with the home made keys. I could just leave them that way but thought might be smart to renew the bottom pins while I have them apart.

I really appreciate the help with this old lock issue.

[Squelchtone]

yes, I have some blanks. They are the same as the Jensen Interceptor. That car was originally made in the same factory in Italy. do you guys think that the CCL/Olympus or the ABUS pins with .095" diameter would work ok? I am measuring 0.0965" diameter of the old pins in this lock now. The bores for the pins measure 0.099" as best I can measure.

I have both door and trunk locks working now with the home made keys. I could just leave them that way but thought might be smart to renew the bottom pins while I have them apart.

I really appreciate the help with this old lock issue.

Have you considered bringing the lock cylinders and keys to a local brick and mortal locksmith shop in your town and having them try to repin them to the keys? That way you aren't buying random parts online hoping they fit. I bet the locksmith shop has some pin kit for some kind of padlocks that would fit the size requirements of your cylinder's chambers.

I know it is satisfying figuring something out on your own, but it's also good to sometimes just pay someone $40 bucks to repin your locks and call it a day.

just a thought,
Squelchtone

[femurat]

Hi, my friend has some pins and springs, but wants to be sure of the measurements before sending them to you. Too many variants were made to be sure without measuring them. We know the diameter is 2.5 millimeters. How about the length? And the springs?

Cheers

[kindacreeky]

The bottom pins for this lock are 3.70mm, 4.00mm, 4.07mm, 3.56mm. They vary a little between the door and trunk lock depending upon wear. So the original pins were some longer than this. The diameter of these pins measure between 0.0965" (2.45mm) and 0.0960" (2.44mm).
The follower push pin caps are 0.0964" (2.45mm) dia. x 0.100" (2.54mm) long.
The springs are 0.059" (1.50mm) dia. x .20" (5.08mm) long.

Each of the two locks uses (8) springs, (8) follower push caps and (4) bottom pins.

The cylinder plug for these locks is 10mm diameter.

The cylinder plug pin bores measure 0.099" (2.515mm). They might be 0.010" inside diameter. I do not have any way to measure more closely.

I sure appreciate your help on this.

[kindacreeky]

Update: I have another set of these locks that came off of a 1959 Lancia Appia Convertible. This car's body was made by Vignale in Turin Italy, the same manufacturer of the Italia. They have the same exact locks on the doors. I have been trying to pick the trunk lock from the Lancia but have not been able to get it apart. At the suggestion of my brother-in-law who retired from being a locksmith at Colorado College, I ordered some shims. The clearance was very tight but I was able to get a shim past the first back pin. With some more picking and raking, I got the cylinder to turn. Yea! Upon disassembly, I find that this lock has less wear. The diameter of these pins are larger, 0.097" to 0.098". 0.0984" = 2.5mm, so I think we can be sure that these pins were originally 2.50mm.