Need Help To Indentify Sargent and Greenleaf Lock

[laxman]

This old Sargent and Greenleaf lock is fitted to a Siffel and Freeman safe. S&F closed business in 1920, by my research, so the safe and lock are at least 103 years old. The safe is open, structurally sound, and I have a working combination. I would like to have the ability to reset the combination, but I cannot find any info such as a serial number or a model number, on any of the parts, whether the safe or lock.

Here are three photos. The lock dial face is unique, to me. The dial to is marked from 20 to 100. The range from 001 to 019 is blank. There is only one index mark on the dial face. It is at top dead center.

There seems to be provision for a key to reset the combination. I cannot find a reset key anywhere in or on the safe. Is a reset key available and How would it be reset? Unless you use the only existing mark at TDC, there is no second mark for where to start to dial in a new combination.

Here are some photos. Sorry about the poor quality of that front dial face.

[MartinHewitt]

This lock was in 1928 the model 6810 and the dial the 6910. An older model number for this locks is No. 5. To change the combo you will need a change key. This is inserted through the hole in the cover, passes through the square holes and tip rests then in a hole in the back of the case. Turning the nut with the square hole will separate the wheel into two parts. Finding a key will not be easy, finding someone making one will be more easy. When a dial has no change index, then it is possibly necessary to make a combo conversion to the opening index for setting. Or there is a mechanism either attached to the cover or to the rear wheel.

As always: Check the full opening and closing sequence at least three times before closing when you worked on your safe.

[laxman]

This lock was in 1928 the model 6810 and the dial the 6910. An older model number for this locks is No. 5. To change the combo you will need a change key. This is inserted through the hole in the cover, passes through the square holes and tip rests then in a hole in the back of the case. Turning the nut with the square hole will separate the wheel into two parts. Finding a key will not be easy, finding someone making one will be more easy. When a dial has no change index, then it is possibly necessary to make a combo conversion to the opening index for setting. Or there is a mechanism either attached to the cover or to the rear wheel.

As always: Check the full opening and closing sequence at least three times before closing when you worked on your safe.

The lock looks to be in mint condition, except for the oxidized dial. It's got a lot of life left. I will need to bring back the original luster of the dial, if possible. But it works and I have a working combination. Still, I'd like to, maybe, change that combo, FWIW. So, now I'm looking for info, such as you provided, and thanks for that. I'll being exploring for a key.

[MartinHewitt]

GWiens has linked this photo in the thread viewtopic.php?f=36&t=62460 with the change key to the right:


What you absolutely need for a change key are:

• pointy tip, which can catch the small hole in the rear of the case as a guidance
• the square part, which goes into the square hole
• a bend at the end, so that you can apply torque
• where the cover hole is surrounding the key while the other end is in the case hole possibly a removal of the edges, so that the key can turn

Optional is:

• the flag, which prevents falling out the change key while changing the combo. Although it controls sometimes a mechanism in the cover, that lifts the lever out of the way while changing.

So the most simple way is to get a piece of square steel (1/8"?) that fits nicely into the square holes. File the tip to a tip. Maybe file it round where the hole in the cover will be. And bend it at the end. Maybe use stainless as it is harder. Unlocking three wheels together may need quite a lot of torque. If changing the combo with the simple key, make sure the key doesn't fall out in the middle of the change and you have one or two of the wheels unlocked. It may not be noticeable immediately, but the code of the wheel will shift and it will be a nightmare.

[MartinHewitt]

Had a look on a similar lock I have. The hole in the cover is big enough to turn the full square rod. My dial ring has a notch on the right of the opening index.

[laxman]

Had a look on a similar lock I have. The hole in the cover is big enough to turn the full square rod. My dial ring has a notch on the right of the opening index.

Thanks for the additional info, I think. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. I'm disposed to changing my combination, simply because I can. Now I'm creeping closer to being able to do it. I'll check the actual i.d. of the square hole. Easy enough to measure it. Fortunately, I don't have any square stock at home, at the moment. So, I can't get in trouble right away. I'll clean up the dial ring, but it does not looking like there is a second notch to work with.

[MartinHewitt]

If you turn the front wheel, so that the square is visible through the cover hole, is the gate then left or right of the finger on the lever?

This says it is for a 6810. My be worth trying.
https://mbausa.com/slc-7-safe-change-ke ... 6810-6815/

[laxman]

If you turn the front wheel, so that the square is visible through the cover hole, is the gate then left or right of the finger on the lever?

This says it is for a 6810. My be worth trying.
https://mbausa.com/slc-7-safe-change-ke ... 6810-6815/

Yes, I saw that link myself, working off of the info you earlier provided about the S&G 8610. I would lean toward purchasing that SLC-7 key, rather than making my own, just because. I'll check out the orientation of the square/gate/finger(fence) positions tomorrow.

[laxman]

If you turn the front wheel, so that the square is visible through the cover hole, is the gate then left or right of the finger on the lever?

This says it is for a 6810. My be worth trying.
https://mbausa.com/slc-7-safe-change-ke ... 6810-6815/

So, I am looking at the rear door of the safe and the

And, still an open question for anyone, this lock has no changing index mark. I read one S&G manual for a 6741 model and it says "Changing Index:..on S&G locks, changing index is 8 1/2 numbers to the left of the opening index." Might this also apply to the lock I have? And, if I were to change the combo, is there a forbidden zone? Is this why the numbers 1 through 19 are blank on the dial face?

Thanks for bearing with me.

[MartinHewitt]

You can try to set all wheels to 50 and then check on which number the safe opens. The procedure would be to put all square holes at the location where the change key hole is in the cover, attach cover, insert and turn the change key and then turn the dial 4 times left to 50. Then turn change key back, remove it and find out where it actually opens. So turn left (4 times) to 40, turn right to 90 to check of the lever falls. Then in steps of 0.5 turn left to 40.5, right to 90, left to 41, right to 90, ... On mine the index is to the right. This would mean it will open around 58 or so. Once it opens don't stop until it again doesn't open. The centre value of the opening numbers should be used to determine the offset.

The blank area is exactly there that people can't set the last number to the forbidden area.

[laxman]

You can try to set all wheels to 50 and then check on which number the safe opens. The procedure would be to put all square holes at the location ...

Oh Boy. Sorry about the truncated first paragraph in my previous post. I was in a rush and...stuff happens. I checked the orientation of wheel gaps at the moment when the last combo number was dialed. The position of the square hole was opposite the cover keyhole. The square hole was between 5 and 6 o'clock and the gaps above were similarly slightly past 12 o'clock. At this point the fence was aligned with the gaps and ready to fall. If anything, the fence was slightly favoring the left side of the wheel gaps.

I'm gonna order the change key and then digest your advice above. I'll be back after the key is received. Martin, Thanks.

[Squelchtone]

This lock is not like modern locks that will have the change index at 11 o'clock.. this lock has to be dialed to about 1:30 o'clock (about 12 numbers Right from top dead center opening index) for the change key hole to align with the change key cams in each combination wheel. Surprisingly your dial ring does not have line engraved at the change index.

[MartinHewitt]

On my 50 number + gap dial (would be about 60 numbers all around if numbered) it is 6 numbers to the right. Scaling it 100:60 it would be 10 numbers.

[laxman]

This lock is not like modern locks that will have the change index at 11 o'clock.. this lock has to be dialed to about 1:30 o'clock (about 12 numbers Right from top dead center opening index) for the change key hole to align with the change key cams in each combination wheel. Surprisingly your dial ring does not have line engraved at the change index.

Your comment is acknowledged and appreciated. I have been very very busy with home work and need to run and have 2 new tires put on my pickup truck, in a bit. It is 8:30AM. Hardly enough time in the day to give to this lock question of mine proper attention. Yes, from a comment from MartinHewitt, his similar lock has the changing index mark to the right of the 12 o'clock dial position. I am certain that is the case here, too.

[laxman]

On my 50 number + gap dial (would be about 60 numbers all around if numbered) it is 6 numbers to the right. Scaling it 100:60 it would be 10 numbers.

I played with my lock late last night, assuming the change index might be either left or right of top dead center. Interesting exercises. I did order a change key. I have odd scrap pieces of round and rectangular pieces of metal bar stock. I have a metal working lathe. This lock is new to me. I can appreciate it's complexity. I just don't have a piece of 1/8 inch square stock, on hand. Anymore, I simply purchase for the project I am giving my attention. My inventory control is out of hand with my collection of small parts,etc. I appreciate your help.