Need help fixing or installing a lock? We welcome questions from the public here! Sorry, no automotive questions, please.
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First off, let me mention that I'm a total newbie to the locksmithing trade. I have a pretty good working knowledge of mechanics, tools, and home improvement in general, but no almost nothing about locks.
The cylinder in my apartment lock is on it's last leg. It gets "stuck" a lot when I use the key, and I have to jiggle the key to get it open. I'm afraid it'll get to the point where I'm locked out completely and'll end up with a very expensive locksmith bill. I called a locksmith and told them my situation and they quoted me a $200 replacement change. I'd like to avoid this if possible by doing it myself.
From what I understand you can simply change the cylinder. Right now the cylinder is an "Angal" brand mortise cylinder (I think at least. Not sure about the difference between a Mortise and a Rim cylinder). My roommate mentioned that when he had it installed, he made sure it was a "medeco" key-way (whatever that means).
So I have a few questions:
1)How do I determine the size cylinder I need? 2)Will I need any special tools to install a cylinder? 3)Any good tutorials I should read about how to replace a cylinder?
Here are some pictures of what my lock looks like:
Can we get a close picture of the keyway of the lock? Possibly half of the key? (Just cover half of the key bitting with paper and take a picture.)
Angal, if I recall correctly, normally does pin-in-pin locks similar to Mul-T-Lock. Medeco, on the other hand, is an entirely different lock.
The keyway picture can help us to identify the lock, and half the key is enough for us to be sure of the type of lock (pin tumbler, dimple, pin-in-pin, sidebar, etcetera). Please do not post a picture of your entire key, as we don't want to risk your security.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
I'm happy to take a pic of the entire key (unless you think it'd be a huge security risk... I doubt someone could duplicate a whole key from a photo. Especially since my address is unknown)
Also, the faceplate to the lock would have to be removed, right? Any idea how I'd go about removing that?
Please don't post a picture of the entire key. Yes, a key can be made based on a picture. And you live in an electronic world. It is downright amazing what some people can determine about who you are and where you live. That is why we suggest you don't post full pictures of keys you use.
You will see that I have posted pictures numerous pictures of keys. None of which are in use. Either the locks have since been rekeyed, or are part of my collection.
The pictures you just posted (or tried to post) did not work.
Gordon
Just when you finally think you have learned it all, that is when you learn that you don't know anything yet.
That's actually pretty awesome.. you must be in NYC. Angal makes generic Medeco Air 00 keyway mortise and rim cylinders as well as generic Mul-t-lock cylinders. It's an obscure Asian company and some NYC locksmiths seem to have a direct line to them, when I tried to order from them I couldn't figure out how to even contact them.
You will unfortunately have to take it all apart before you can figure out how long/deep of a cylinder you need 1 inch, 1-1/4, 1-1/2 etc and what kind of cam is on it. There is a chance you can take the cam off of it and put it on the new one. The cam is a little flat metal piece that actually makes the deadbolt retract and extend when you turn the key which turns the plug in the lock.
Medeco is a high security lock company, their stuff is well made and you pay more for it. Angal is like the only company I know who makes a generic lock that is a 100% clone of the 1970-1985 Medeco Classic design, with an Air 00 keyway shape so real Medeco keys fit into the Angal lock, or Angal keys with the Medeco Air 00 keyshape fit into them.
On the edge of the door, above the deadbolt, you see 2 little Phillips screws, they hold the cylinders in place so someone cant just unscrew them. You also have a protective shield to deter burglars from trying to pry the cylinder out of the door. You'll have to take the set screw off the knob on the outside and perhaps inside as well and remove the knob spindle in order to remove that security plate on the outside of your door.
After that plate is removed, unscrew the little Phillips screw that is on the edge of your door and is the set screw holding the Angal cylinder in place. Next insert your key almost all the way, in order to use it for leverage to unscrew the cylinder out of the lock case which is mortised inside your door. Mortised means there was a solid wood door, and someone drilled out, milled out, or chiseled out a pocket in the wood for a metal lock case to slide into. The metal lock case has holes in it for thumb turns like the one inside your apartment, for a cylinder like the Angal one you have and holes for the spindle and knobs to go through. It may not be oiled and the threads are metal on metal so go easy and try to unscrew the cylinder out of the door.
Once it is out you can measure the threads and see if it a 1 inch cylinder or 1-1/4, etc, don't measure the face of the lock which looks like a mushroom top, just measure the threads.
Next, you can go on ebay and buy a new cylinder with keys and in the mean time reassemble your door and use it until the cylinder comes in, then put the new cylinder in a put all the security shields and knobs back on and done.
Dont just buy any lock case, they come in MANY different sizes and the hole to hole distance is important, meaning you will have to take a lot of measurements on your current lock case if you decide to just replace all the guts, not just the cylinder.
Note: that mortise cylinder threads are pretty generic, so you could get a Yale, Medeco, BiLock, Abloy, Mul-t-Lock, Schlage, Sargent, BEST, or whichever brand you feel secure with.
hope this helps, if any of this order of operation is not correct, I invite any of our professional locksmiths to please chime in with advice and instructions,
Thanks for such and indepth response! Your post is a huge help! A few follow-up questions:
1) Is Medeco a better quality lock than Angal? If Angal is an exact quality replica, but much cheaper, I'd just as soon go with that, but if a medeco cylinder is going to last me 20 years as opposed to 5 I'd rather just purchase that. 2) Do I need to measure the cam if I have to replace it? 3) If I were to replace the entire lock case, what measurements would I have to take?
I do live in NYC by the way... and we have the good fortune of having access to all kinds of amazing stores. Is there a good lock supply store that you would recommend in NYC?
I may just go to homedepot and buy several different medeco lock sizes so I can replace it in one fell swoop. They have a terrific return policy and I can just take back what I don't use.
ncsuactor84lock wrote:Thanks for such and indepth response! Your post is a huge help! A few follow-up questions:
1) Is Medeco a better quality lock than Angal? If Angal is an exact quality replica, but much cheaper, I'd just as soon go with that, but if a medeco cylinder is going to last me 20 years as opposed to 5 I'd rather just purchase that. 2) Do I need to measure the cam if I have to replace it? 3) If I were to replace the entire lock case, what measurements would I have to take?
I do live in NYC by the way... and we have the good fortune of having access to all kinds of amazing stores. Is there a good lock supply store that you would recommend in NYC?
I may just go to homedepot and buy several different medeco lock sizes so I can replace it in one fell swoop. They have a terrific return policy and I can just take back what I don't use.
you wont find Medeco at any Home Depot, BUT I do know there are some hardware stores on Manhattan that DO have a Medeco key machine and can sell you cylinders. just dont pay more than $90 for a cylinder with 2 or 3 keys. Keys are usually $10-$20 each. Angal will be very hard to find unless you walk into the right locksmith shop. I would say the Angal is very well made, just an odd ball import so hard to find.
and props to cledry for his years of experience and wisdom, he knows exactly what you need!
someone else will have to tell you about measurements on the lock case.. I suppose width x length x depth will be important, the positions of the tabs that hold the screws which hold the lock case into the mortise opening in the door is important, and then distance from door edge to the center of the lock cylinder hole, the knob/spindle hole, and distance from hole to hole, I've only done this a couple times, someone else may have to correct me or chime in.
how about a video? =)
I'm glad he struggles a little getting parts off and back on, that's how it usually goes.
Just a +1 to what was being said about a key being made from the picture: I may not know where you live, but it wouldn't be a problem to copy your key if you had shown the entire bitting.
One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory - Rita Mae Brown
Locks like mortise cylinders, mailbox locks, file cabinet locks, etc have a lever looking piece called a cam attached to the plug at the back of the lock. Anytime the the plug turns (whether from the proper key or picking) the cam turns with the plug. On a mortise cylinder as shown in this thread, when the cam turns it contacts the locking mechanism and either locks or unlocks the door depending on which way it is turned. Different manufacturers have specific cams they use on their locks and mechanisms. The brand Yale uses their own cam known as a Yale cam.
Thank you Divinorum! That clears things up tremendously.
I went by two locksmiths today. They both have a Medeco 1-1/8" mortise cylinder with a yale cam. They told me 1-1/8" is standard for NYC, and so are yale cams. I asked about "Angal" brand cylinders, and one guy said he doesn't carry them anymore because he had problems with the quality control (people's key's stopped working, etc).
One guy wanted to charge me $79 for the cylinder, and the other wanted to charge me $110. I asked the $79 guy if it was an older model Medeco (I read on the internet that pre-2012 Medeco locks had security issues). He sort of rolled his eyes and said "no one's going to be able to pick that lock."
Is it worth it to spend the extra $$$ for the newest model?
In my opinion, for your application - no. The eyerolling locksmith is basically correct. The (older) replacement Medeco cylinder is going to be somewhat better than the lock you had on the door before.
Take a look at the pix you posted; someone tried to get through that door a few times in the past, and I'll bet none of them attempted picking. It looks like the tools of choice were claw hammers, prybars, screwdrivers, etc.
There were several 'models' of Medeco lock over the years, some were attempts at improving security, some were attempts at preventing unauthorized key duplication, and some were just Medeco's attempts to keep patent protection going on their products a little longer.
However, if you think about the entire population of criminals, the vast majority will 'break in' in the truest sense of the word; just smash something until they gain entry (window, door, etc). A much smaller percentage might try to pick a plain pin-tumbler lock, perhaps by 'raking' or 'snapping' or 'bumping'. An even tinier percentage of them will spend the time to try to manipulate open a higher-security lock like a Medeco, Mul-T-Lock, etc.
You have to think about it from their perspective; is there an easier, faster way to get in? What's inside? How much is it worth?
In the end, your house and mine don't need a significantly more expensive/complex lock because (1)there's probably a much faster way to get in vs picking the lock and (2) there's nothing inside that valuable to warrant the time it takes to pick a higher security lock. I'd buy the $80 older Medeco cylinder and be happy with it.
$79 in NYC is a good price, just make sure it is not a used cylinder that he had kicking around from another job and repinned with new pins, ask if it is brand new. If it is new buy it immediately and do a happy jig on the way home, because you got a good deal.
+1 on everything somenewguy said.
As to the 2012 and prior Medeco problems, those attacks were on their Maxum deadbolts and I do not think it affected their retrofit mortise cylinder line.
If anything ask the guy for the $79 bucks if it is a Medeco Classic Air 00 keyway or if it a Medeco BiAxial Liberty or G3 keyway. I'm gonna bet it is Classic 00 keyway, which by the way is not a bad thing at all, I'm just curious what the guy is selling you.
The guy for $110 may have the Medeco M3 which is the newest and in my opinion the worst of the 3 generations of Medeco cylinders. It has this plastic spring loaded piece called a slider on the right side of the key hole and it is mainly there to provide a utility patent extension so they can control the key blanks for 20 years. Does nothing really in terms of adding any security to the lock.
When you replace that cylinder, lubricate the goodies inside that Marks lock case so everything turns smoothly.
