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1882 Herring-Hall-Marvin

Forgot how to dial the combination on that old safe? Think you got the right numbers but the handle is stuck? What safe should you buy? Ask your safe questions here!
Forum rules
You are posting this in This Old Safe, a public area of the forum.

Safe manipulation discussion is allowed, but safe drilling or other destructive entry is only allowed in the Advanced - Safes and Safe Locks area.

If you are a guest of the forum and have a safe you need to open, but you do not have the combination, we cannot tell you how or where to drill it.

1882 Herring-Hall-Marvin

Postby DarkLeftArm » 5 Jan 2023 16:11

Greetings. New guy here.
I have an 1882 Herring-Hall-Marvin safe.
It is 4 feet tall(123 cm), 3 feet wide(91 cm), and 29 inches(73 cm) deep, measured externally.
It has double doors with double locking internal doors also.
I inherited this old beauty from my dad who passed away in 1999. He had had it for maybe 10 years before he died. He bought it in Bisbee, Arizona. It was at one time owned by Wells-Fargo company, and then later owned by Railway Express Agency. There are different instruction papers glued to the interior, one being from Wells, the other, newer looking one is REA. The exterior is fairly ornate, you can also see that it's been re-branded there.

My wife and I have been using it regularly for a decade now for important papers, coins, etc. instead of a safe deposit box.
It's always worked just fine.
Until this morning. Between the two of us, we must've tried the combination 20 times, then all of the sudden, my wife got it to open.
Now I'm hesitant to lock it again before attending to whatever was the hangup first.
I would like to know if there's some sort of maintenance of the combination lock that should be performed on a schedule. Cleaning? Lubrication?
I would really like any information I can get about it.
Are there any diagrams or literature out there?
I am an old car/motorcycle guy and I do all my own mechanical restoration and maintenance work, I've dabbled successfully in gunsmithing and fairly complicated electronics, so I'm hopeful that this lock won't be beyond my grasp.
Any advise I can get will be deeply appreciated.
Thank you.
Bert
DarkLeftArm
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 5 Jan 2023 15:34

Re: 1882 Herring-Hall-Marvin

Postby MartinHewitt » 5 Jan 2023 16:44

Hi Bert, Thank you that you did not close the safe again. Don't close it until the problem is found and solved. A problem with an open safe is a little headache, but a problem with a closed safe can be a major pain in a bodily opening. And when you think you have found and solved the problem please test the lock and mechanism before closing the door at least 3 times. The safe may have a emergency locking function which prevents an opening if parts like the lock cover are not (properly) installed.

AFAIK HHM was founded in 1896. The precursor companies Herring and Hall also made safes. All three companies used each a few different lock models. It is important to identify what you exactly have. Can you show is photos from the dial, from the back of the door and everything what you perhaps have already removed? This forum does not allow upload of photos. If you do not have the possibility to upload photos to your on service to have them linked here, then we have here a guide how to do this on imgbb: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60483 .

Generally, it is possible that grease got to sticky over the centuries, that a screw got loose, that wear created a problem.
MartinHewitt
 
Posts: 922
Joined: 16 Nov 2016 18:11

Re: 1882 Herring-Hall-Marvin

Postby DarkLeftArm » 7 Jan 2023 18:47

MartinHewitt wrote:Hi Bert, Thank you that you did not close the safe again. Don't close it until the problem is found and solved. A problem with an open safe is a little headache, but a problem with a closed safe can be a major pain in a bodily opening. And when you think you have found and solved the problem please test the lock and mechanism before closing the door at least 3 times. The safe may have a emergency locking function which prevents an opening if parts like the lock cover are not (properly) installed.

AFAIK HHM was founded in 1896. The precursor companies Herring and Hall also made safes. All three companies used each a few different lock models. It is important to identify what you exactly have. Can you show is photos from the dial, from the back of the door and everything what you perhaps have already removed? This forum does not allow upload of photos. If you do not have the possibility to upload photos to your on service to have them linked here, then we have here a guide how to do this on imgbb: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60483 .

Generally, it is possible that grease got to sticky over the centuries, that a screw got loose, that wear created a problem.


What you said about maybe a loose screw is actually laughable, if you look at the back of the lock. There's a possibility of four screws, and there's only ONE. And that one looks like somebody tried to use a hammer and chisel on it.
I am tempted to remove that screw just to see what lies under the plate it's holding in place, but I'm afraid other parts will come tumbling out. If anything does fall out, it'll be a drag, because the door is full of whatever concrete/asbestos stuff it is filled with.
I would sure love to know what, if anything I could use to lubricate the mechanisms.
I'm tempted to squirt some spray graphite or some such in there, but I just don't want to screw things up out of ignorance.

I'll see if I can figure out the images here.

https://ibb.co/SJ7h7x4
https://ibb.co/zVMsCHD
https://ibb.co/vJHbHjF
DarkLeftArm
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 5 Jan 2023 15:34

Re: 1882 Herring-Hall-Marvin

Postby MartinHewitt » 7 Jan 2023 19:57

One screw is quite an adventure. The lock is a Yale HE. The thing held by one screw is called the curb. On this thing is the wheel post with three wheels. To change the combo this this has to be removed. And when it is missing the lock can be opened without a combo ... if there were not the relocker to the right of the lock. If the screw falls out and the curb wiggles its way out the arm on the right side will move and block the bolt work. Safe permanently closed.

As it is necessary to change the combo the curb is meant to be removed. So I don't see an issue removing it, but be careful with closing the door. I think you can remove the door cover too, to get access to the complete bolt work. You can clean and grease it. Sticky grease is not so bad there as you have the handle to apply force. Everything behind the the curb should not be greased, but only slightly oiled and probably only on the post the wheels are sitting on and perhaps some steel parts to prevent rust. To much oil or esp. grease can lead to wheels and parts stick together, so that one wheel drags the next one and the safe doesn't open. When you have removed the door cover you will also understand the relocker and then know how to handle it.

I would check three things.
1) To much sticky grease?
2) With the curb installed dial the combo, remove the curb and then look how the gates (the slots in the wheels) are positioned. Are they well aligned or is something of?
3) After removal of the curb you can see the drive cam, which is connected via a threaded spindle with the dial. Cam and spindle are locked together with a spline key. Is this all put well together or is the spline key loose?

The wheels on the curb should be so called mesh change wheels. The changing procedure is like described in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6L_jQJRQXQ If you disassemble it, it is generally a good idea to make photos or notes of the order of parts, because things can be slightly different from the video, e.g. how the wheel order is marked.

I would look for a complete set of screws to prevent an accident. I would also disassemble the wheel pack as described in the video and wipe of every part. This is often enough, but you can put parts into an ultrasonic cleaner or clean it with break cleaner (everything there should be metal unlike in the video). Before reassembly oil or grease the post very slightly, i.e. put the stuff on the post and wipe it of again. I don't have any experience with graphite and can't say a thing about it. In the video you see bent bronze disks at the bottom of the stack. If your lock has them you can use them to control how much force is required to turn the wheels. If it is to little wheels can continue to turn on their own when they have momentum and then it is important to dial slowly to get an opening. I think it is good if you can feel the pickup of wheels. I would keep the combo as it is for the moment and not separate wheels in inner and outer ring before the old combo works reliably. The dial could also be removed for some lubing, but I don't recommend it unless it is necessary. To remove the dial the spline key has to be pulled and later reinserted. Every reinsertion of a spline key it sits less and less tight in the slot and can then create problems when it gets loose. If you do remove the dial, then at least do not remove the dial ring and (if it can be removed) the lock case. The realignment can be a pain.

Good luck. :D

PS: 1882 is the patent date. It only means that parts are not made before this date, but they can have been made decades after.

PPS: The safe is - besides the screws - in a really great condition as far as I can see from the photos. Very often they are heavily worn on the outside. Also often a few or perhaps all of the acorns decoration the hinges are missing. Please cherish it!

PPPS: If you hold up the relocker you can retract and extend the bolts while the curb is not installed you can see how the mechanism interacts with the lock.
MartinHewitt
 
Posts: 922
Joined: 16 Nov 2016 18:11


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