3 or 4 number combination

[TimD]

I have an interest in cracking this old Taylor safe located in Ontario, Canada. It would be really useful if somebody could confirm that this is a three or four number combination. I'm hoping for a three number combo. I have never worked on a double door safe before. Thanks. Tim

[Squelchtone]

I think that Sargent & Greenleaf made lock was 3 combination wheels dialed 4L-3R-2L. After the 3 numbers are dialed, there is a final turn to the Right to retract the bolt.

[TimD]

The lock has Taylor stamped on the dial (2nd photo). I'm concerned that with a safe of this size Taylor, who also made bank vaults, would have installed a 4 number combination.

[Raymond]

Perform the wheel count diagnostic. In case you do not understand what is happening look for videos explaining how a safe lock works. Understand that the "outside dial" is directly connected to the inside "drive wheel".

Turn the dial at least 5 times in either direction and stopping on a number not close the the drop area, like 40, 70, etc. Carefully turn the dial the opposite direction and feel for a 'bump' on or very near to the original start number. This bump means that the drive wheel has picked up the first wheel. Continue to turn the dial the same direction and feel for the next bump which is picking up the second wheel. Continue again to feel for the third wheel. You have now confirmed that there is at least the expected three wheels. Continue to turn the dial and feel for another bump. If there is one, you have now confirmed that it is at least a four wheel lock. Try turning the dial once more. If you feel another bump the lock might actually be a five wheel lock. If there was no bump then it is a four wheel lock.

[Squelchtone]

The lock has Taylor stamped on the dial (2nd photo). I'm concerned that with a safe of this size Taylor, who also made bank vaults, would have installed a 4 number combination.

The lock was made by Sargent & Greenleaf, Taylor just stamped it with their name for marketing purposes. From my research I believe it to be a 3 wheel lock, but yes you're right, they did make 4 wheel versions as well. As Raymond suggested, you could try to feel or listen for the number of wheels engaging each other as they get picked up each time the dial is turned all the way around.

[TimD]

Raymond, why didn't I think of that? Duh . . .

S&G making locks for Taylor? Who'd have thought it.

Thanks for the info.

[Squelchtone]

S&G making locks for Taylor? Who'd have thought it.

Many safe manufacturers made the safe box itself, but then used a well known lock maker to provide the lock. Some would show the lock makers logo such as Yale, but some made some kind of deals to provide unbranded locks where the safe container maker would stamp their own logo.

You can tell an old Sargent & Greenleaf by the upside down star used for the opening index.

Here is one example:


Have a good one,

Squelchtone

[Safecrackin Sammy]

I would imagine three wheel but as others have said count your flys. Thats a basic step in manipulation. ( I could tell you stories)

Those handles are S&G replacements too. Lotta work has been done on this safe.

[TimD]

I've been counting the flys and I think its a 3 wheel lock. The first and third flys I can feel/hear but the second one seems a bit mushy, not a positive location. So I'm moving forward with the assumption that its a 4CCW-3CW-2CCW and1CW to release the handle(s?).

As per other safes I can envision how the lock releases the right hand handle to allow it to turn CCW, but I have never worked on a two door safe. Does the lock when dialed correctly release both handles or just the right one and then there is another mechanism inside to release the left hand handle?

Sammy, what do you mean 'Lotta work has been done on this safe.'? I can see the hinges are a bit ornate, with three 'end covers' (top and bottom right hinges) missing and something has been done to the left handle - the pin holding to its shaft is not fully home and there is what looks to be like hacksaw blade marks on the door face behind this handle across the shaft. A bit strange (to me) but there it is . . . .

[MartinHewitt]

The last CW would be a turn until the dial stops. If you do the turning quicker for the wheel count you will notice the bump more. E.g. by stopping 15 to 20 numbers before the number where you positioned all, and then make a quick wrist flick to turn the dial up to at least 10 numbers after.

When you have the first door open you will find out what to do to get the second door open.

[TimD]

So this is an old safe and nobody knows when it was last used. The previous owners of the building built a wall around it as they did not know what to do with it. Anyway, the lock when manipulated goes very stiff from time to time. There does not seem to be any pattern to it. Feels free for some time and then suddenly it becomes harder to turn. It can still be turned but it is noticeably harder to move it around. Very annoying and confusing.

So is it possible to oil/lubricate a lock? My initial thoughts would be 'no' as there would be quite a tortuous path for the oil to get to all the wheels. But it can't do any harm surely.
Has anybody got any thoughts on this?

Also, could anybody estimate the age of the safe?

Many thanks.

Tim

[MartinHewitt]

I doubt you will get much improvement with oil. If you are lucky you will get it to the center of the dial ring, where dial spindle is passing through. The main issue with oil is that it grabs all kind of tiny dirt particles, gets sticky and eventually quite viscous, which leads to all sorts of problems. When servicing oil and grease is never the answer to a problem you describe. But you can't service it. So if you can't progress because of this issue you I would try something like WD40 which might also flush out some dirt from the dial.

Another idea: try pushing down the dial (i.e. towards the floor) while feeling for the CPs. This might lift up the drive cam and expose it to the lever nose.

Dating is difficult. My wild guess would be 1920s to 1940s.

[Squelchtone]

So is it possible to oil/lubricate a lock? My initial thoughts would be 'no' as there would be quite a tortuous path for the oil to get to all the wheels. But it can't do any harm surely.
Has anybody got any thoughts on this?

Tim

I had an old Mosler from 1910 that had a gummed up dial and before enough about safe locks and how old safes are put together, I also thought I could somehow squirt some PB Blaster or WD40 around the dial and that it would hopefully travel down the spindle and into the lock. The only time that will work is if you put that safe on it's back and sprayed an entire bottle of WD40 down the dial where it meets the dial wring but that's not realistic.

What I end up doing which helped was to run a heat gun on the dial for minutes at a time, which for me at least felt like it made the old grease inside a little softer and made picking up wheels much easier. Obviously don't grab the dial and try to spin it right after it has been subjected to a heat gun for 5 to 10 minutes straight. You may be able to achieve the same thing with one of those under the desk floor heaters, put it on something at dial height, and let it run all day, then see if dial is easier to turn. Don't burn the place down by leaving that heater on overnight.

A thread from 2014 where a member started to get better readings after using a heat gun on the dial: https://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=58391&p=427626#p427626

Good luck,
Squelchtone