Manipulate old S&G safe

[Rjs5244]

Hey guys, new here. A friend has an old S&G safe they want opened. As it's a bucket list item for me I did extensive research on manipulation and gave it a go. I could easily tell there are 3 wheels but I could not for the life of me find the contact area. The only thing I heard or felt was a raking noise when I had all 3 wheels picked up between 20-30. Is there any advice you guys can give me?

The safe has been painted over and both handles are broken off (there is a nub left behind that I can turn) the center dail was illegible but I was able to find a photo online of one that can be read.

https://ibb.co/nbtWsLK
https://ibb.co/sJ1pZ93
https://ibb.co/D7jN9fx

[Squelchtone]

Could you share a photo of the entire safe? Much easier to figure out which model lock you have inside the door if we can see the hinges, wheels, corners, etc.

And the photos you shared, are those 2 different safe dials?

Thanks
Squelchtone

[Rjs5244]

Could you share a photo of the entire safe? Much easier to figure out which model lock you have inside the door if we can see the hinges, wheels, corners, etc.

And the photos you shared, are those 2 different safe dials?

Thanks
Squelchtone

Thank for for the info, below are the photos that I have of it. I didn't take a picture of the entire thing because I assumed only the lock was important. I was able to take a screenshot of my friends FB post of it though. The other dial from my original post is the image I found online that looked most like the one I am looking at.

[Rjs5244]

https://ibb.co/3cRWPvb
https://ibb.co/Cmp2D4G
https://ibb.co/kKNyBvq
https://ibb.co/D7jN9fx
https://ibb.co/sJ1pZ93

[Squelchtone]

just a heads up, the [image] command only works if you point it to an exact image file such as https://i.imgur.com/albumname/filename.png if you just point it to https://i.imgur.com/albumname it doesn't know how to render an entire web page so it doesn't display anything.

[Squelchtone]

After uploading to imbBB, you can drop down and select BBcode Full Linked, that works here:

Code: Select all

[url=https://ibb.co/4RCwW26][img]https://i.ibb.co/0y1pqKg/mystery-safe.jpg[/img][/url]

[Squelchtone]

I don't know the brand of safe off hand, but I will look into it. Someone else will hopefully pop by and tell you what you are working with as far as the lock goes.

[Rjs5244]

I don't know the brand of safe off hand, but I will look into it.

Thank you for your help I appreciate it!

[MartinHewitt]

The CPs should be in the empty range on the dial. Not being able to feel the CPs can have multiples reasons, e.g.:

1. The lever spring is broken or worn and the lever is only pushed down by gravity which is very little force. Contact microphone can be useful and turning the dial more quickly. Once you have a foot in the door the CPs can appear or improve because a lever that sits deeper gets more of the drive cam gate's edge. You can do an AWL/AWR in steps of 10 or so and see if one of these positions make the CPs appear.
2. The lever is additionally stuck by hardened grease and not falling down at all. You could try to tap with a rubber mallet above the dial if this makes the CPs appear.
3. The lever nose and/or drive cam are so worn that the lever is riding more on the wheels than the drive cam. In this case you can feel the gates on the wheels as bumps when they turn. E.g. if you turn all wheels left, get a bump on 30 turning to 40, go back to 20 and then again to 40 with the drive cam alone there won't be a bump. Using this information and improving it can be tricky. Did it once on a combination padlock. But if you manage to put a proper gate under the fence the CPs may appear and then normal manipulation is again possible.

This lock can have fixed pins instead of flies, which reduces the available number range. If you get for all wheels significant (about 5 numbers per wheel) earlier pickup then this is the case.

Welcome to the real life[TM], good luck and have fun!

PS: The dial could also be misleading. So don't forget to check for other locks than S&G, e.g. direct entry fence locks. (Does the dial bind if you turn the ... handle.) From the hinge finials it could be a MacNeale & Urban safe, which usually had a lock with a letter dial. I don't really know anything about that.

[Squelchtone]

From the hinge finials it could be a MacNeale & Urban safe, which usually had a lock with a letter dial. I don't really know anything about that.

I had the same thoughts, but the flowers on each corner of the roping also suggest it may be a Hall's like this one:

https://www.accusafes.com/product/antiq ... safe-lock/

[MartinHewitt]

A Hall's can have similar finials. If it is a Hall's, then it must have a direct entry fence lock. Not sure if an S&G dial can be made to fit a Hall's.

[Rjs5244]

The CPs should be in the empty range on the dial.

You have given me hope, thank you so much! I am going to go back and try a rubber mallet and a small sander so I can use the vibation to hopefully free a potentially stuck lever. Then AWL/AWR in increment of 3 (don't want to miss the gates) and try for the contact points.

Contact microphone can be useful

I just googled this, yes it definitely would. I'm using a stethoscope now. I'm surprised at how much they hurt my ears haha.

In this case you can feel the gates on the wheels as bumps when they turn. E.g. if you turn all wheels left, get a bump on 30 turning to 40, go back to 20 and then again to 40 with the drive cam alone there won't be a bump.

This could be that raking noise that I mentioned I could hear/feel when I had all of the wheels picked up and moving between 20-30

This lock can have fixed pins instead of flies, which reduces the available number range. If you get for all wheels significant (about 5 numbers per wheel) earlier pickup then this is the case.

This is new information to me. I don't know how it impacts the manipulation but I do know that there was at least, if not more, a 5 number differential between all of the wheels. After I parked them, I noticed the differential when I went to count the total number of wheels. Each wheel was picked back up 5 number away from the previous.

Welcome to the real life[TM], good luck and have fun!

Thank you again I will let you all know how it goes! I will be headed back to it Sunday afternoon. If I can't manipulate it I may look into the vibration method and hope it is old enough for that to work. I have been given permission to use other methods to open it but it would make me sick to put a hole in something with so much history. I'm fully capable to do the work I just couldn't bring myself to do it though.

Does the dial bind if you turn the ... handle.

I did check for this and did not feel any resistance, I wad hoping to enhance the contact points but it didn't work

[MartinHewitt]

I do have the same issue with stethoscopes. Being a doctor is no fun.

[Rjs5244]

I tried again yesterday and it did not go well. Thank you all again for your help. I recommend to her that she find a Smith with an auto dialer if she wants a non damaging option otherwise they can easily drill a hole to open it which is repairable.

There is some writing that can be seen at a certain angle, I took a video and the link is below. It's illegible to me but you may recognize it. Even if the brand is determined though I don't think that information would be too useful with manipulating it as I can't find the contact points.

https://imgur.com/a/PwK4P4L