old safe id

[jamie]

Hi. New here and I have this old safe. I picked it up a few years ago, locked shut, like most safes I buy. This one being Group 1 is so hard to feel the lever/cam contact, I can hear it which I think I have possibly the first number. I find listening for the contact points so hard compared with feeling the contact on a group 2 lock of which I have no problem at all opening.
I'm hopeful someone can identify the safe and more importantly the lock make/model. This would assist in knowing what's I'm actually hearing.
It's group 1, four wheel. Of which the safe has two. The first lock I have unlocked as it was set to a default bank combination.
Thanks.
https://ibb.co/LYHz5gq
https://ibb.co/QrFv2Yy

[Kaesekopf]

Hi. New here and I have this old safe. I picked it up a few years ago, locked shut, like most safes I buy. This one being Group 1 is so hard to feel the lever/cam contact, I can hear it which I think I have possibly the first number. I find listening for the contact points so hard compared with feeling the contact on a group 2 lock of which I have no problem at all opening.
I'm hopeful someone can identify the safe and more importantly the lock make/model. This would assist in knowing what's I'm actually hearing.
It's group 1, four wheel. Of which the safe has two. The first lock I have unlocked as it was set to a default bank combination.
Thanks.
https://ibb.co/LYHz5gq
https://ibb.co/QrFv2Yy

Why are you calling it a group 1 lock? Of the newer Sargent and Greenleaf vault locks, there are group 2 and group 1 varieties, although the group 1 designation is a little misleading, as the anti-manipulation feature is an eccentric roller on the portion of the fence that contacts the cam.

The group 2 version is the 6500 series, the group 1 version is the 6400 series.

Both of these would likely be more difficult for you to feel the contact points because the fence is gravity driven, not sprung.

I think though that your lock must look more like the old style of lock inside, perhaps even a roller bolt. That style of dial is not typically associated with the modern vault format locks from S&G

If you are attempting to manipulate, it does get easier to feel contact points as you work your way through.

[jamie]

I call it a group 1 combo as it fits in with underwriters laboratories definition of Group 1 locks. That is provide advanced mechanisms to combat manipulation. Not sure when the standards were introduced, I do know UL have been around for 100 years or so.

Yes I'm trying to open it with manipulation. I have opened many S&G group 2 locks with manipulation. This one is very hard to feel the contact points. Hearing the contact points is the the method I have used on it. The thing is there are two distinct clicks where contact is made then lost on each side. I would like to see inside this type of lock so I can understand what is going on and what is causing the contact point noise.

I do know the safe is a Chubb high grade bankers safe. An early model of the 5220 or pre 5220 safe I think.
I cannot find this lock in books I have so I'm hopeful someone here might point me in the right direction.
Anyone have a similar lock they can share pictures of the inside.
Thanks.

[Kaesekopf]

I call it a group 1 combo as it fits in with underwriters laboratories definition of Group 1 locks. That is provide advanced mechanisms to combat manipulation. Not sure when the standards were introduced, I do know UL have been around for 100 years or so.

Yes I'm trying to open it with manipulation. I have opened many S&G group 2 locks with manipulation. This one is very hard to feel the contact points. Hearing the contact points is the the method I have used on it. The thing is there are two distinct clicks where contact is made then lost on each side. I would like to see inside this type of lock so I can understand what is going on and what is causing the contact point noise.

I'm slightly confused, are you seeing somewhere on the safe that it is equipped with group 1 locks, or are you guessing this from your difficulty with this safe? The only group 1 lock I know that will act nearly identically to a group 2 lock is the Sargent 6400 series lock, and in some ways that lock does not warrant a group 1 rating, as its manipulation resistance is supposed to come from the eccentric nose roller.

I think your lock may be a group 2 lock, but gravity fence. I'll speculate below. I would however like more understanding of the feeling of these "two distinct clicks". Gravity fences coupled with indirect drive can require a much more delicate touch, and patience in finding the contact points, much less measuring them.

I do know the safe is a Chubb high grade bankers safe. An early model of the 5220 or pre 5220 safe I think.
I cannot find this lock in books I have so I'm hopeful someone here might point me in the right direction.
Anyone have a similar lock they can share pictures of the inside.
Thanks.

From a very brief search, it appears Chubb 5220 is an isolator safe which would often have a 7L50 (Chubb numbers make no sense to me and seem to be reused randomly) lock. The chubb "bankers lock" I own is a 4 wheel gravity fence lock which I would expect with a better wheel pack would be extremely difficult to manipulate, due to the subtlety in contact points. My lock appears to be an exception, and is relatively easy to manipulate.

[L4R3L2]

If the dial is not spring loaded, or has a knob within it to turn in order to unlock, it is highly unlikely that the lock is Group 1.

The S&G lock with the eccentric roller on the nose is not a Group 1 lock. It is Group 2M.

[Kaesekopf]

The S&G lock with the eccentric roller on the nose is not a Group 1 lock. It is Group 2M.

Somehow Sargent and Greenleaf got UL to rate their 6400 series lock as group 1, it's just an eccentric roller. Not sure what went into that.

[L4R3L2]

Somehow Sargent and Greenleaf got UL to rate their 6400 series lock as group 1, it's just an eccentric roller. Not sure what went into that.

No. You are mistaken. Like I said, they are Group 2M, not Group 1 locks.
From the horse's mouth...

https://sargentandgreenleaf.com/product/6600-series/

[Kaesekopf]

Somehow Sargent and Greenleaf got UL to rate their 6400 series lock as group 1, it's just an eccentric roller. Not sure what went into that.

No. You are mistaken. Like I said, they are Group 2M, not Group 1 locks.
From the horse's mouth...

https://sargentandgreenleaf.com/product/6600-series/

Sorry, looks like we’re talking about different locks
The one that is listed as group 1 is one the vault format lock
It looks here that some are group 1, some are group 2m, based on I think the indirect drive.
https://sargentandgreenleaf.com/product ... ault-lock/

[L4R3L2]

Specifically discussing the models with the eccentric roller design, they are nonetheless Group 2m models, not Group 1. They do confuse things by including entirely different designs within the same series.

[MartinHewitt]

It depends. The 6430 is UL Group 2M, the 6435 with an additional indirect drive is UL Group 1.
https://sargentandgreenleaf.com/product ... ault-lock/

Not sure if the locks in the above safe are rated in any way.