s&g combo safe lock, change combo?

[emptech1]

I've searched the forum, haven't found what I'm looking for.

I have the door off of a safe. The customer has lost the combination of the lock,
but fortunately, when he opened the safe years ago, he left it in the opened, locked
position. I don't know exactly which model the S&G lock is, but it says on the back,
"Group 2 No. H356439." Since he doesn't have the combo, I can't follow the procedure
using a change key to change the combination.

I might be able with a strong light, line up the disks so that I can use a change key
and change the combo. I don't have a change key, but do have some 1/8" keyway
stock, and a machine shop, so I can fabricate the $8.00 key I need.

I could easily haul the door to a business down the street, but I'd like to learn how
to do this myself.

Can somebody tell me how far from the end of the keyway stock I need to the shaft
round, so it can turn once slipped into the keyway on the back of the lock?

If I should decide to remove the lock, to access the screws I will need to remove the dial,
I read somewhere that it is snapped in place, how is it removed? I don't want to cause
any damage.

Last, am I on track with what I want to do, hoping what I'm asking for is appropriate
for this forum. I don't have access to the "advanced" forum yet, but am working on it.

Thanks - Jim

[Squelchtone]

I'm about to save you a weekend's worth of work trying to make that key..

Since the combo has been lost to time, why not just recover the combo by taking back cover off and dialing the lock while looking at the gates aligning, then give the customer the "NEW" combo.

I have already mentioned my opinion in another 'how do i make an S&G change key' post that I think that's a total waste of time to just save $8 by taking all day or weekend making a key. Some people like that sort of project, but everyone's time is worth money, and my time is certainly worth more than $8 per day =)

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=56111&p=407960

to each his own, but yeah, save yourself a days work, and just give them the combo the lock is already set to.

Squelchtone

[emptech1]

After doing some more research and checking the installation manual from S&G,
all I have to do as you mentioned is to take the rear cover off. When the weather
warms up a little tomorrow, I'll go back to the shop and see if there are two screws
in the bolt that I can remove, therefore allowing the cover to come off. I need to
remove some more hardware to get complete access to the back of the lock, I also
understand to get to the screws, I'll need to fully extend the bolt.

It doesn't appear that I need to remove the dial.

You're right about fabricating a key, but if I was serious, I don't think it would take
an hour, but it is a matter of convenience, not a matter of saving money, but like
you mentioned, if I pull the cover off and align the wheels, I won't need the tool.

Keep the info coming, always something new to learn. I'm retired, I actually get
paid not to work, if you look at it that way, but I like to stay busy.

Thanks - Jim

[Squelchtone]

After you take off the cover you will see this: Just align the wheels so the gates are all like this photo, a small flashlight may help as the deepest wheel is the first one to set and the others will be in the way so it is hard to tell if you have it lined up under the fence correctly.



When the correct combo is dialing up, you may find that bolt wont retract, because if the relocker which is usually pressed down by the lock cover. just press it with your finger and it will get out of the way of the bolt retracting.

Dial the combination at least 3 times to make sure it opened each and every time after you assemble everything back together before you give the door back to the customer.

Squelchtone

[emptech1]

From the installation manual, there should be two screws in the cover.
I can't see these screws at this time, since there is a steel plate covering
most of the lock. About all I can see until I unbolt the plate is the entrance
for the change key.

Once I remove the plate, I think everything is going to make sense to me.

BTW, are you tone squelch or dpl?

Jim

[Squelchtone]

BTW, are you tone squelch or dpl?

Jim

CTCSS 100.0 Hz

[Squelchtone]

Prepare to see this sort of cheap junk inside your safe door.. I was astonished to find that most safe doors with big chrome bolts are just for show and everything inside is no better than the door lock linkage from a Buick.




You may have a small plate coming off the lock cover, it goes to a spring loaded plunger called a relocker, just remember how it was all put together before you take the cover off.

Nite,
Squelchtone

[emptech1]

Bingo, once I unbolted a plate, I was able to see the back of the lock, which is
a R6700 series. I was able to line the wheels up, the lever dropped in and the
lock was unlocked. I removed the lever and spring, so I could look at the wheels,
was able to determine the old combo by rotating the dial until the gates lined up.

I asked the owner if the recovered combo meant anything to him, said he didn't.

I can leave the number the way it is or create a new number. I know there are some
guidelines, like not all ascending, or all descending. I know there is a range that the
last number should fall in.

I lined up the change holes in the wheels, by using the combo and the charge index.
I don't have a change key. We already discussed the value of making a key vs buying
a key. The dimension accost the flats of the hole is about .144", haven't measured
the flats in the wheels, but I've heard .125" is close enough. The very end of the key
from photos I've seen shows that it is round, anybody know what the diameter would
be, 1/16"? or would just a point do. Looks like the only reason for the flag is so the
key isn't removed while in the wrong position, as the flag doesn't actually do anything.

As I learned, the lock isn't that complicated, just hard to see what you are doing
with the lever in the way.

Thanks for help again - Jim

[MrWizard]

The flag thing as you call it is most important.

First of all it lets you know the change key is all the way into the lock properly.

Secondly that flag thing is there to limit how far you turn it to unlock the wheels without it you can spin it 360 degrees. Unlocking the wheel pack and not having it in the proper position and spinning the dial the tiny teeth can grind being not set far enough apart being brass not a good thing to do.

And lastly it is there so you cannot remove it in the wrong position. The back plate has raised areas that flag hits to stop it from turning too far.

The round part on the end is .110 dia and it is .075 long.
There is also a flat area in the square key that has to be there or it won't go in the wheel pack.

Just buy the key, set new combination the customer can remember, sell the key to the customer with printed instructions how to change the combination be done with it.

Customer should have the key and instructions for his own safe.

Buy the key, print these instruction save yourself a headache.

http://www.safeandvaultstore.com/pdfs/Mechanical.pdf

There you go done deal.
Richard

[emptech1]

Thanks Richard:

You and others are right, not worth the labor to make a new key, to be honest,
I thought I had some 1/8 keyway stock, wrong, what I had was .160, would have
to mill it down, then turn it, my 4 jaw doesn't go down that small anyway. I
could do it if there was no choice. The customer agreed to keep the same combo
that I recovered, this time he will write it down somewhere.

I'll put the monster back together and hall it back.

Thanks all for the help.

Jim

[MrWizard]

Ok glad if I was any help. Buying that one S&G change key works on the majority of group2 S&G locks so having it when someone or yourself would like to change a combo on demand you have it right there.

The other safe change key that is in wide use you would be wanting to get is the Lagard.

http://www.safeandlockstore.com/product ... G1307.html

Lagard 3 Wheel Safe Lock Change Key Part# LG1307

Standard 3 wheel Lagard change key for 3330 series Group 2 locks, 3390 series Group 2M locks, and 1985 Group 1 locks. Comes with change key and instruction sheet. Also is only 8.00.

Richard

[emptech1]

eating my own words, I've machined the keyway stock, about to weld the flag
on the shaft, just love what I do.

Jim

[LockDocWa]

After reading this post I just have a few thoughts.
#1) I never give the customer the change key.
9 times out of 10 you will be back drilling the safe open.
#2) REMEMBER to ALWAYS replace the back of the safe lock before you close the safe to try it!!!
Without the lock cover, the internal re-locker will bite you.
#3) If you plan on doing more than 1 safe combination change,
Buy the proper tool. Eight Bucks? BFD.

[MrWizard]

I have sold and serviced safes since 1978. installed them in floors, delivered them to commercial customers, they have bought them walked out of the shop with them, they always get the change key and I show them how to change the combo before I leave. Not once have I ever had one customer screw it up. They know to NOT close the door until they dial the combo a minimum of 3 times first. Maybe my customers pay attention to instructions or I am the a good teacher which ever is the case not been a problem. There has been some that said they would not feel they should try to change it themselves and I tell them then it is best to call for service and leave it alone. Only my experience and has worked great for over 3 decades for me.

Richard

[cledry]

I have sold and serviced safes since 1978. installed them in floors, delivered them to commercial customers, they have bought them walked out of the shop with them, they always get the change key and I show them how to change the combo before I leave. Not once have I ever had one customer screw it up. They know to NOT close the door until they dial the combo a minimum of 3 times first. Maybe my customers pay attention to instructions or I am the a good teacher which ever is the case not been a problem. There has been some that said they would not feel they should try to change it themselves and I tell them then it is best to call for service and leave it alone. Only my experience and has worked great for over 3 decades for me.

Richard

You are lucky Richard. If I sell a new safe then of course the customer gets the key, it is part of what they are paying for after all. I've had a few customers screw things up though, but then I get to charge more to open it, so it's all good.