One more Victor cannonball safe

[00247]

I needed it like I need another hole in the head but I couldn’t pass on it when a Victor cannonball safe turned up at an estate auction just 15 miles from home. Elmer at 86 years young had passed away and all his belongings and the contents of his repair shop were being liquidated. He had worked for a local farmer’s co-op as a mechanic and when they discontinued being a Ford tractor dealership in the 70’s he bought out all their stock and started his own repair shop. Somewhere along the line he also got the business safe.

Here it is as it was in his shop.



I ended up bidding more than I cared to when a young Amish guy bid against me. Remember, at an auction it takes to fools to bid an item up. lol. I justified the higher cost by the fact I didn’t have to haul it very far as some safe purchases have been pretty long trips.

The auction bill stated the safe was extremely rare and weighed 2500 lbs. Much like a good fish story both facts were stretched. Uncommon? yes, extremely rare? no. The weight is around 2000 lbs at best but it is still a formable foe when it comes to moving it. And how do you get it home you might ask? I have found it is the easiest to move a heavy safe by just hauling my Bobcat to the site, securing the safe to the pallet forks with lots of carpet for protection, and chaining the machine to the trailer. Drive on, drive off.



I already have a Victor cannonball so I know a little about them. This one is after the 1908 patent for the new design one piece door. Previously (1905 - 1908) the door was of two pieces with a manganese tapered outer half and the inner piece was steel with fine machined threads. The two halves were bolted together. There was a breach of this design where explosives blew the two halves apart. The new design was made from a solid piece of manganese. This new design required the new course threads to be ground as the manganese was two hard to machine in those days.

Early design with machined fine threads.



Updated one piece door with course threads that are ground.



Victor included the door failure in literature to promote the new style door. (Thanks to Doug MacQueen for the photo)



I had assumed that was the only difference in the early and late Victor cannonballs. I couldn’t have been more wrong. While the general door design is the same including the ring and pinion gear drive, door cover, lock and bolt slide, hinge cradle, and all related bolts, the base for the safe and the cannonball body are completely different design. Most notably, the cannonball body is a one piece casting where the earlier model is two pieces and joined together. On both bodies the door opening taper is ground into the manganese casting to match the door. The inner threads are pieces of steel bolted to the inside of the safe body.
If you look closely at the two safes the base is different on each. The body on the earlier model is mostly round, the later design is slightly elongated with a flatter mid section. Overall height, width, and depth are all within an inch eyeballing with a tape measure.





Earlier model.





The main issue with the “new” cannonball is that the door lock had been drilled and after that totally removed. Drilling the lock on this model safe is an absolutely ignorant thing to do. Even with it in a locked state all one has to do is remove the door pivot finials and pivot bolts. Swing the crane hinge to the side and then remove 6 door cover bolts. The cover will slide right off, lock included.

All that is left is a dial ring with an unnecessary hole.



I am having internet connection issues so I will stop here and continue hopefully tomorrow. Uploading pictures is not working and I don't want to risk losing the hours of work I have done creating this. Stay tuned.

[MartinHewitt]

Great catch! As soon as a safe is on a pallet it is not that difficult to handle anymore (as long as there are no stairs).

Where did they drill? I can only see the change key hole. Did they enlarge that?

[00247]

Where did they drill? I can only see the change key hole.

Now there is something I hadn't considered. And upon closer inspection, you are correct. It is a change key hole. I will finish about the safe and address the lock after that. Thanks.

[00247]

With the cover removed the ring and pinion rotating system can be seen along with the lock inside the cover. These pictures are from the other Victor.





You probably wonder, how can this safe provide any security when the lock can be so easily removed? The front door lock only locks the pinion gear that the crank spins and is considered to be a day lock for when the bank is open for business. You can see the notch in the locking collar where the sliding bolt extension slides in on the pinion shaft in the picture above. For nights and weekends the inner time lock provides the real security. The Bankers Dustproof time lock (a division of Victor) can be wound for any length of time up to 72 hours. If the inner time lock is set the safe cannot be opened until the 3 redundant clocks wind down. Add to the fact that the manganese is drill proof and explosion proof and that the door screws in to wedge the matched tapered opening of the door and the jamb makes it resistant to nitroglycerin attacks which were gaining popularity in the early 1900’s.
The Bankers Dustproof time lock is there but the door hinges have been broken, a common problem. It should be an easy fix. Often, someone would not close the time lock door tight to get the latch to activate and when the safe door was spun the unlatched door would flop around and get bent or broken.

This is of the time lock on the redone Victor, it is the same in both safes.



These Victor cannonballs, which were the smallest of 5 Cannonball models, have one interior shelf and this one still has the original piece of carpet. A family member even gave me a hat from Elmer's repair.



For now this safe will stay in as found condition. It was gently cleaned and wiped down with a coat of varnish as it originally was to help preserve it. If I can find an original lock, I will then decide whether or not to redo it. A more modern lock can be retrofitted but I am not keen on that approach. It is still presentable as is because most of the original lettering is still there.









The first Victor cannonball.



Next I’ll cover the lock and the differences in the locks of these two cannonballs.

[edocdab]

With my little knowledge there's nothing much to say except that it looks like another great find and fantastic piece of safe history. Thanks for the write-up. I'm learning all sorts of interesting things from what you and others are posting

[MartinHewitt]

I think this safe is in a great condition, which is worth to be preserved.

[00247]

First, I have to shout out a huge thank you to bitbuster. A tip from him has lead to a great find. Thanks!

A couple days ago I made a trip to the Brainerd, Minnesota area to look up a safe dealer that has a large stock of old safes and parts.

A large stock of old safes is an understatement. I saw well over 200 of what I would call antique safes (more than 100 years) and another 50 that were slightly newer. There was another very large building full of more modern to late model safes that there was not enough time to go look at. Dean said he lost count after 500 safes. Better safes are kept for resale, poorer ones are parted out. It is organized for the most part; he knows what he has and where it is at. Maybe with just a little searching. lol

The main item I was looking for was the Sargent & Greenleaf lock for the Victor cannonball. After some discussion about it he didn’t recall ever seeing a front key change on a cannonball, but he had parted out some Victor cannonballs over the years. In a large steel multiple drawer unit that stored locks, we looked through the Victor drawer. A variety of locks but nothing was even close. Then Dean reached over to a table that had overflow, opened up a box, and said here is a Victor lock. My eyes bulged out of my head when I saw it had the black Japaned body as he handed it to me. My jaw dropped when I pulled the rear cover and saw a key change wheel pack. I darn near crapped my pants when I flipped it over and saw the removable dial and the front key change hole. I could not believe it, the exact lock I thought I would never find. Can anyone identify the model?











If the lock was here, surely there must be more Victor parts. On the search we went and found a Victor cannonball rear door plate with the patent tag still in place and the surround frame for the time lock, and on a shelf was a Victor inner rear door piece with the Bankers Dustproof time lock (rough condition) and most of the door lock linkage. A crank for a Mosler screw door safe was also found. I would have liked to have looked more but time ran short. A fair deal was made on everything and I was on my way.



One thing I didn't find was the slide extension for the lock bolt that slides into the pinion gear slot. I can make one on the mill but would love to find an original. I’m already planning a return trip to the safe dealer to do some more looking.

Just for some comparison, here are a few shots of the lock out of the earlier victor cannonball. I lost the file pictures so pulled the door cover to verify what it was. Always a risky maneuver on a restored safe.

Sorry, not sure why the pictures turned upon uploading.

[MartinHewitt]

Great finds! If your lock has three wheels it is based on the 6815, with four on the 6805. All the inner parts are the same, just the case is different. Perhaps they used the case of the 6815 and modified it to fit the Victor. I can't find any number for it.

The photos have an orientation in their data. They can have also attached information on how they should be rotated for viewing. Some viewing method can ignore the rotation information. Some processing can strip the rotation information or break it. The result are different orientations of the photo where at most one is correct.

[Squelchtone]

Great finds! If your lock has three wheels it is based on the 6815, with four on the 6805. All the inner parts are the same, just the case is different. Perhaps they used the case of the 6815 and modified it to fit the Victor. I can't find any number for it.

The photos have an orientation in their data. They can have also attached information on how they should be rotated for viewing. Some viewing method can ignore the rotation information. Some processing can strip the rotation information or break it. The result are different orientations of the photo where at most one is correct.

I blame iphones for this, they always rotate photos.

[bitbuster]

Some gas in the tank and some time behind the wheel and the road trip was completed. Glad you got what you needed.....and the surprise Victor lock. I'm still planning to make the trek myself.....sometime.

[edocdab]

Fantastic you found so many parts already. It would be awesome if the safe can get in working order with original parts

[DaWolfMan]

What a beautiful safe, they surely don't take the time to make safes pretty anymore, now they are just big heavy boxes, but they do serve their purpose. I always enjoy looking at the older safes with all the paint and machine work proudly displayed on them. I have seen some older safes that have such lavish paint work done on the doors that it really does look like a piece of art. It also amazes me how well constructed older safes are, most of them proudly show scars where they had a hard life or a failed attempt to break into them by someone with no talent or time.

You must keep us updated with this as i assume you are going to be restoring it now that you have found the replacement lock parts.

you stated that the time lock was in rougher condition, but complete, so i am assuming that it still functions when wound.

Please don't let this be the end of this post, we need updates as you work on this.

DaWolfMan