Herring-Hall-Marvin Safe with HHM dial

[JonnyPhenomenon]

a coworker picked up a safe at a yard sale and was unable to get it to open, so he bought it to me to take a look.
here is a link to some pictures of this in my google photo album. hopefully you can see them ok. https://photos.app.goo.gl/uXEM2CBzMLCER7Kx9
If not, their really isn't much to it.
It is a small, 13"x12"x10" "field safe", with carrying handles on two sides.
The dial has a HHM logo on it, (not yale, or sg, or whatever)
It has, what I think might be a serial number painted on one of the hinges which reads "1320".
it does NOT have a "lever" type handle that you would turn to open the latch. it just has a little knob...

By some stroke of luck, it has the combination written on it in chalk on the side and bottom of it, which reads
44
1
64
5

Now, I have tried dialing in this combination 100 different ways, but I cannot seem to get this to open.
Does anyone know the dialing order/method for an HHM safe with an HHM dial? - can anyone shed some light on this safe's vintage and stuff?

Methods I have tried:
left 4x to 44, right to 1 3x, left to 64 2x, and slowly right, to 5. - no go.
right 4x to 44, left to 1 3x, right to 64 2x, and slowly Left, to 5. - no go.
I have tried both of these methods, going past 5, hoping it would "lock up" and stop turning, as seemed to come up in other threads about HHM safes. - No go...
I have tried both of these methods, stopping at 5, then reversing direction and hoping for the same thing... - no go.
I have even tried adding an extra turn to each of the methods because I read that some of the "4 wheel locks" might need that. (5x left, 4x right, 3x left, etc etc.)
in all cases, I never have the dial "lock up", and never have I been able to pull the safe door open.

One last bit: on one of the placed where the combination is written, their is a little mark next to the first number which looks like it might be a C, but I think it might be an L, for (Left 44). - so... there's that.

Thoughts?

[MartinHewitt]

Hi Jonny, all locks connected to this appearance of HHM fire safes that I can find have in common, that the last turn is left. So it should be 4R-3L-2R-L.

Dialling is not that intuitive. So here is a video showing how to open a lock: https://youtu.be/KRzOsGD0aeo?t=78
This is a 4L-3R-2L-R lock. So you need to reverse the dialing direction for your lock.

In any case it doesn't hurt to reverse direction when it won't open.

Btw. is the outer ring well fixed or can it move/turn?

[JonnyPhenomenon]

the outer ring, as in the metal bezel that does not turn with the dial, seems to be immobile. I have tried to tweak it with my hands and it wouldn't budge. it does however have a dent in it which I assumed was just from it getting bumped around. where is the pointer supposed to be oriented?

How forgiving are these combinations? if I was off by say 1 number in either direction, would it still open? (could I be close enough?)

Is their any common "pattern" to the combinations on these? IE, was the High, Low, High, Low pattern of numbers fairly common? if so, I could try a sequence of combinations to try to sort of brute force it...

[MartinHewitt]

A shifted dial ring is a not uncommon reason for a problem. My guess from the appearance of dial and lock is that +/-1 is not a problem.

[Squelchtone]

the outer ring, as in the metal bezel that does not turn with the dial, seems to be immobile. I have tried to tweak it with my hands and it wouldn't budge. it does however have a dent in it which I assumed was just from it getting bumped around. where is the pointer supposed to be oriented?

.

Based on your photos, the dial ring and the opening index look like they are in the right spot.

[JonnyPhenomenon]

A shifted dial ring is a not uncommon reason for a problem. My guess from the appearance of dial and lock is that +/-1 is not a problem.

OK. I have watched that video a few times now and I have more questions...
in the video, once they aligned all of the wheel gates the fence drops in and they turn the dial clockwise to extract the bolt. Are you saying that I need to turn counter-clockwise to extract the bolt on this safe?

The combination written on this safe is 4 numbers, but you said that my lock should be a 4R-3L-2R-L... is the last L where the bolt should be extracted? or do I need to turn it the other direction to extract?


My indexing ring does not have a "change index" mark. if my opening index mark is at the 12 o'clock location, the hinges of the door are on the right. - does that sound right?

[MartinHewitt]

Yes, the final turn should be counter-clockwise (Left), but there might be a rare HHM lock, where it is clockwise. Don't ignore this possibility.

People who do not know about safe locks often specify the final stopping point in a written down combination, i.e. in your case "Left and it stops at 5". But it could indeed be a true 4-number combination, even so the box looks rather tiny. Then you need to dial 5L-4R-3L-2R-L.

Most of the time the hinges are on the right.

[JonnyPhenomenon]

I added another picture of the dial to that album. I look a closeup of the dial itself. it has the HHM logo across the center knob, and it doesn't even remotely line up with the number dial. - though, the number dial does feel VERY secure to the knob, so I don't think that it has twisted on the shaft... - but who knows...

I squirted some wd40 around the dial in hopes it might free something up.... if I turn the dial around and around it does get really stiff feeling at times...

[MartinHewitt]

I don't see an additional photo.

I think there is a pin inside the dial knob assembly, which allows only one position.

[Squelchtone]

those numbers could be someone's own shorthand or secret squirrel code..

It could be backwards, maybe combo is 5-66-1-44

maybe it's 5 turns to 66, and 1 turn back to 44 and it opens. sometimes people are lazy and set the same number on several wheels.

I like Martin's idea to dial this way:

5L to 44
4R to 1
3L to 66
2R to 5
1L till dial stops and you open the door.

[JonnyPhenomenon]

I don't see an additional photo.

I think there is a pin inside the dial knob assembly, which allows only one position.

Oh! OK, try this link instead. https://photos.app.goo.gl/dgA8rCiHUqYefxvB9 - same album, but shared correctly this time.

[Squelchtone]

I don't see an additional photo.

I think there is a pin inside the dial knob assembly, which allows only one position.

Oh! OK, try this link instead. https://photos.app.goo.gl/dgA8rCiHUqYefxvB9 - same album, but shared correctly this time.

I wouldn't worry about the HHM logo not being the same orientation as 0 on the dial. I have a Mosler safe and the Mosler logo is even when the dial is at 75, so it's more of a visual annoyance than a functional one.

Squelchtone

[JonnyPhenomenon]

still not having any luck with it. I have been trying to use some tips I gathered from this kid's youtube series on determining group 2 lock combinations. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4IPsd9MDGM ) - this would be a LOT easier if I could see what this lock looked like on the inside... why can't I find any HHM safes with HHM locks on them? all I see are Yale or S&G locks on any of the ones I could find, and even still, they aren't showing me the internals.

[MartinHewitt]

Most HHM locks have friction loaded roller fences. Unfortunately there are not that many videos online which show the internals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJkUrZ-EbjQ

[JonnyPhenomenon]

Most HHM locks have friction loaded roller fences. Unfortunately there are not that many videos online which show the internals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJkUrZ-EbjQ

interesting... I've never seen one like that. - does that make it more resistant to discovery?