Manipulating a Brinks 5059 Firesafe

[ZTatZAU]

Hello everyone!
I'm new to this site and this is my first post. I wouldn't call myself an avid hobbyist picker but several years ago successfully manipulated an old Sentry safe (combination unknown) that I inherited when a son-in-laws' father passed away. Then, just for fun, I successfully manipulated an old floor safe with a Yale lock, that's been in the family for many decades; though I did know the combination before starting. I received a lot of help back then, on the old keypicking.com forum, though for some reason I can no longer access that site.

Fast forward to the present where I've now recently inherited a Brinks 5059 Firesafe from my wife's brother who's currently in a long term care facility. I have the key to the safe but my brother-in-law cannot remember the combination. I understand, from what I've read, that I should be able to obtain the combination with the safe's serial number from Brinks/Honeywell/First Alert if I am unsuccessful, but I'd like to try my hand again at discovering the combination through manipulation. To that end I've been brushing up on the technique by reviewing all I could find here on LP101 and a number of YT videos. Before I start twisting in earnest, I have a couple of questions that I hope some here, who may be familiar with the 5059, will be able to help with.



QUESTIONS:

1. Having never seen the inside of the Brinks lock, I can only assume that the key moves the lock's "fence" horizontally into the lined up gates when the correct combination has been entered, which simultaneously retracts the door bolts. Am I visualizing this correctly?

2. As I recall on the Sentry safe, in order to identify the contact points, I had to apply a slight pressure on the opening lever (with a long pointer attached to it) in order to keep the fence in contact with the wheels to identify the CPs; whereas on the Yale lock floor safe, gravity kept the fence in contact with the wheels. With this in mind, I'm thinking I may need to apply a slight pressure on the key in order to facilitate the identification of the contact points. Is this correct? If so, is this slight pressure on the key best done by hand? Or should I rig up a spring to apply a small, consistent rotational force to the key?

Hopefully, your replies will help get me started on the right path to getting this safe open.
ZT

[ZTatZAU]

I've also learned that the Brinks Model 5059 Firesafe came in a couple of configurations... i.e., one (like mine) with the key and combo dial in a horizontal orientation and another with a vertical layout with the dial above the key.

If anyone can post a picture of the exposed lock mechanism on a (horizontal) Brinks 5059 like mine, it would be most helpful and much appreciated.
Thanks! ZT

[MartinHewitt]

On yt is a safe in vertical orientation, but I think the working principle should be the same. So you need to turn the key to move the fence towards the wheel pack and you can use how far the key turns as an indicator.
https://youtu.be/B6BJ-OuXY-E?t=79

[ZTatZAU]

On yt is a safe in vertical orientation, but I think the working principle should be the same. So you need to turn the key to move the fence towards the wheel pack and you can use how far the key turns as an indicator.
https://youtu.be/B6BJ-OuXY-E?t=79

Thanks Martin! That takes away some of the mystery.
I appreciate your help.
ZT

[DeanR]

Here is the setup I used:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=67896
Scroll down for the picture.
Another I did, I used a small mirror instead.

[ZTatZAU]

Here is the setup I used:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=67896
Scroll down for the picture.
Another I did, I used a small mirror instead.

Thanks Dean! A very nice setup you have there. My setup was much simpler and quite crude in comparison and my results were less than stellar.

I have to run out, right now for a bit, but will be posting with my progress and questions later this afternoon.
ZT

[ZTatZAU]

First, thanks again to Martin and Dean for your thoughtful replies. I appreciate your help!

I feel like I'm making progress on the Brinks 5059 Firesafe and hoping for some feedback on what I've done so far; as well as some advice/suggestions on how best to proceed.

I started by just feeling my way around the combination dial and found what might be the following hints at gates and possible combination numbers.

With AWR: 77.5 - 84 ~ 81
With AWL: 44.75 - 48 ~ 46
83.5 - 94.5 ~ 89
91.75 - 97.25 ~ 94

Next, with AWR to 50 and then half a turn L back to 0, I applied hand pressure to the key and repeatedly found solid lock-up contact points at...
83.5 - 89 ~ 86

Then, with AWL to 0, I started graphing the CPs from 0 to 98 by 2s. While the L CPs always seemed to be apparent and repeatable, for some reason, the R CPs were either not apparent or made no sense. Here is the graph...



To my untrained eye, from what I was able to graph, the following combination numbers were suggested.

14, 49, 66, 81

I then setup the following simple pointer attached to the key to plot key deflections around the dial by 2s in both directions. I think I might have had better luck with a longer pointer and more amplification of the deflection as Dean's setup provides; but this is what I came up with. I was also unsure of how much pressure to apply to the key by adjusting the rubber band's tension. Should this be a light touch or forceful enough to drive the fence hard into the wheel pack?



With the following results when plotted...



Again, to my untrained eye, the plots seem to suggest possible combination numbers of...

4, 46, 75, 85 with AWR and perhaps 4, 12, 27, 66 with AWL.

So, my list of possible combination numbers, from all the above steps, seem to be...

4, 12, 14, 27, 46, 49, 66, 75, 81, 85, 86, 89, 94

I realize that some of the above numbers that are close, are likely slight variations of the true and correct numbers and with the gates likely to be 3 or 4 numbers wide, I think I can replace the above 13 possible numbers with these 9 numbers...

4, 13, 27, 48, 66, 75, 83, 87, 94.

For now I'm assuming that 87 is the gate on the driver wheel. I'm also thinking the most likely candidates are the numbers that appeared in more than one of the above testing procedures; but at this point I'm only guessing.

As crude as my current skills are, I'm hoping that something here will pop out to some of you more experienced pickers, that I'm not seeing. I would also much appreciate any comments, corrections, or suggestions on what I've done so far and how best to proceed from here.

Thanks! ZT

[DeanR]

Phew! You have been busy. I am not sure where to start here.

I think you need to start by determining how many wheels are in the lock. ie. How many numbers you require to open the safe - 3 or 4. To do that, with no pressure on the key, rotate the dial half a dozen turns (say) right - clockwise - and stop at 50. Now slowly rotate the dial (and drive wheel) left - anticlockwise - to 40, then fast past 50. You should hear a click as the drive wheel picks up another wheel. Repeat left again to 40, and fast again through 50, and you will hear another click. Repeat. Repeat. You should hear two, or three clicks as wheels are picked up. If two, then it is a three-number combination; the drive wheel being the third number. If three clicks, it is a four-number combination. Repeat all this until you feel confident that you are picking up all the wheels. (You might try initially going anticlockwise, and then clockwise to hear the clicks)

Note that with an S&G or LaGard lock, dialling left or right first shouldn't make a large difference to the number, due something called the "fly". However, with direct entry safes, dialling left, or right for any particular wheel will make a large difference on the number. Generally, 4-number safes will dial right on the first number. R-L-R-L. 3-number safes will dial left on the first number. L-R-L. And while, for direct entry safes, this is not that critical, it is probably good practice to follow.

The next normal step is to determine the drive wheel number. Turn AWR 5 or 6 times and stop at zero. Then turning the drive wheel (only) left with key pressure onto the wheel pack, you should feel resistance turning the wheel. Turning the dial will show gaps in the wheel. Often there are false gates. The widest gap or the deepest movement of the pointer is most likely the the last number.

Sometimes this doesn't work, where the height of the drive wheel is lower than the rest of the wheel pack, but one can but hope...

I used a rubber band to give firm and consistent pressure onto the wheel pack. I would pull against the rubber band, releasing the pressure on the wheel pack, turn the dial to the next position, and release my hand. Consistent pressure gave accurate and consistent values.

Sorry I can't give any analysis of your results - I think I had better leave that to people smarter than myself.

[DeanR]

This came up in my feed without my asking. There is a good chance it is like yours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr8mm70wIBs

Some observations:
* There are four numbers. Three wheels and the driver wheel.
* There are no false gates on the drive wheel.
* The drive wheel is larger than the other wheels so will show first and easily. With pressure on the wheel pack, turn the dial until the dial locks. Take the middle number as the fourth number.

Typing "Brinks Safe" in YT search brought up a number of other videos. All show similar construction.

[ZTatZAU]

Thanks again kindly, Dean! I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

Yes busy! And I've been no less busy since my last post. Much of that time was researching and viewing many of the links in your recent "Resources" post. Most notably, JM Lockpicking's three part YT series on manipulaing a Sentry and a few good paragraphs in The "National Locksmith Association Guide to Manipulation dealing with Direct Fence locks.

I had already determined, via the manufacturer, that my combination has 4 numbers with R4-L3-R2-L1 dialing; thus 4 wheels (i.i three plus the driver). I had also already seen that video of the fellow with the door off of a similar Brinks firesafe and could only hope that my driver was the same with no false gates. My first attempts at manipulation confirmed this notion and I soon decided the driver gate and fourth combination numbers was: 83-89 > 86.

I've learned since, that rather than trying to plot L&R CPs on a direct fence lock, my primary focus should have been on plotting deflections of the key and fence. With that in mind, I modified my pointer setup with a much longer pointer and replaced the rubber bands with a spring hoping to apply a more consistent pressure to the fence.



When using the rubber bands, I though the short run of rubber bands coming around the corner of the safe, would stretch out a bit in the time it took me to go around the dial and record the data, so that by the time I got back to zero, the deflection at zero was different than when I began. This would effectively displace my baseline making it difficult to gleen any useful info.

With the new pointer setup, I found JM Lockpicking's second video, on findin the second wheel, to be most informative in finding the next to last number... W3 in my case rather than W2 in JM's video. I also learned the importance of approaching each Wheel (number) in the direction intended for that number. There was some mental gymnastics, for this old timer, in modifying JM's 3 wheel LRL procedure for my 4 wheel RLRL combination. The results of my deflection data for W3 is shown at the bottom of the following sheet.



The plot above, again to my untrained eye, appears to suggest that 48 is likely the 3rd number of my combination. Do you or anyone else, agree with this analysis?

If so, I am looking for a ____, ____, 48, 86, combination. So option one, with the whittled down list of nine suspect numbers at the end of my previous post now reduced to seven,

4, 13, 27, 48, 66, 75, 83, 87, 94, (with 48 & 86 being used in the 3rd & 4th positions),

I have seven numbers to try in the 1st and 2nd positions. 4, 13, 27, 66, 75, 83, 94.

If I'm not mistaken, the possible combinations would only be 7 x 7 = 49 possibilities. For me, perhaps, maybe an hour or two.

My other option, at this point, would be to go back to JM's 2nd video to fully grasp how his procedure for finding his 2nd wheel gate may or may not be modified and extrapolated to plot and determine my 1st and 2nd numbers.

Is it even possible to isolate and plot wheels 2 & 1, in a 4 number combination, with the previously determined wheels returned to their gated positions; before measuring deflections at 2.5 or 5 number increments? If that sounds a bit dazed and confused, it's an accurate description of how I'm feeling right now.

Any comments, corrections, suggestions or guidance would be much appreciated!
ZT