Abloy 8mm Boron Alloy shackle, how good is it?

[gg555]

Well, I guess I've exhausted people's knowledge (or interest) in this topic.

For anyone else out there who might stumble on this thread and needs a good lock with an 8mm shackle, I've found a couple other interesting options. (I also admit I'm just nerding out a bit on the options, out of curiosity.)

American makes a lock with an 8mm boron alloy shackle and a shroud from case hardened steel, the A5300 and A6300 (with 5- and 6-pin cylinders respectively):
http://www.americanlocks.com/p-1204-a53 ... dlock.aspx
http://www.americanlocks.com/p-1204-a53 ... dlock.aspx

Mul-T-Lock makes a lock with an 8mm boron alloy shackle and shroud from brass, the #47 G Series:
http://www.mul-t-lock-online.com/store/ ... duct_id=73

And Medeco makes several variants of a lock with an 8mm boron alloy shackle and a shroud, for which I can't determine the material (one site says brass body and cast iron shroud), in their System Series line. I don't fully understand all the differences between the Medeco variants on this lock, though I gather their cylinder key system is very high quality.
http://www.medeco.com/en/site/medeco/Pr ... tId=915470
https://www.padlockoutlet.com/Medeco-Hi ... -Padlocks/

*

The thing that's surprising, to me, is that Abloy and Abus seem to be discussed a lot as the best locks and they are the only options at SecuritySnobs.com. But Abloy does not make a shrounded lock at all, with an 8mm shackle (though it is boron alloy). And the Abus option with a shroud has only a brass body and a hardened steel shackle, the softest of the materials for both the shroud and shackle (but is the most expensive of all the locks); so you get the shroud, but sacrifice the boron alloy shackle.

American, Mul-T-Lock, and Medeco all offer better combinations of materials, with a shroud. American offers both case hardened steel body with shroud and a boron alloy shackle. Multilock offers a brass body with shroud, but also the boron alloy shackle. And Medeco offers a body with a shroud of unknown material and the boron alloy shackle.

The Medeco lock looks pretty interesting, and I take it their key system is second only to Abloy (?), although with its black body, prominent shroud (more so than the other locks with shrouds), and gold lettering, I wonder if it falls most into the category of a lock that might attrack attention.

Anyway, for anyone out there interested, I think that may exhaust the hi-quality options for a lock with an 8mm shackle.

[GWiens2001]

ABLOY makes several shrouded shackle padlocks.

Gordon

[gg555]

ABLOY makes several shrouded shackle padlocks.

Gordon

Not with an 8mm shackle, which is what I specifically said above.

[Squelchtone]

That's funny.. you may have missed it but I already suggested an American 5300 in your original thread

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=59551#p437827


I think your use of "at all" before the comma threw Gordon off, as it threw me off as well until I just re-read it.

"But Abloy does not make a shrounded lock at all"


Squelchtone

[gg555]

Yes, I can see how "at all" could be misread in the syntax that I used.

Sorry, I forget you suggested the A5300 before. I thought you had suggested one of the larger shrouded American locks with a 11 mm shackle. In any case, I wouldn't have been looking closer at the American locks if you had not pointed me in that direction, so your suggestion did not just go in one of my ears and out the other.

In the end, I don't really know how important the differences between these locks go, as far as cutting. The Medeco seems perhaps the best, with the American a close runner up, and then the Mul-T-Lock after that. I'm not sure how much the softer materials in the Abus make a difference or how it compares to the Abloy with the boron alloy shackle but no shroud. I just thought as long as I researched this, I may as well compile it all in one place for anyone else with similar questions.

I guess the Abloy remains quite a bit above the rest as far as picking goes (though for my purposes I consider that the least likely attack).

[nothumbs]

I own (and use) a MasterLock 20xx combination lock at the gym I go to. Works fairly well, but it has an interesting defect. The last number in the combination can often be 'felt' when doing the last rotation. Not a huge issue for my use, but if you're expecting a higher level of security, you might want to gain access to one and play with it before investing, although at roughly $10US, not a big investment.

[gg555]

I own (and use) a MasterLock 20xx combination lock at the gym I go to. Works fairly well, but it has an interesting defect. The last number in the combination can often be 'felt' when doing the last rotation. Not a huge issue for my use, but if you're expecting a higher level of security, you might want to gain access to one and play with it before investing, although at roughly $10US, not a big investment.

Thanks nothumbs.

I ended up getting a Master 20xx to at least have an immediate improvement over the horrible Master 175, while I contemplate fancier locks with shrouds and high quality key systems.

It's true, after you dial the first two numbers and return for the third, the dial just clicks into place. I guess it's latching into whatever mechanism has to be activated so that when you turn it the other way after the last number that moves whatever is holding the ball bearings in place out of the way.

I find that it's not just a question being able to "feel" that last number. It very obviously clicks into place and no matter how fast I spin the dial for the last number it always stops and clicks into place. In fact, it's hard to get it to go past that spot, without stopping first and jiggling the dail around.

In effect, this means there is no third number. It's really a two number combination. Combine that with the loose dialing (you can be off by one number in either direction) and this means that instead of the supposed 64,000 possible combinations the numbers on the dial suggest, there really are only 400 distinct combinations.

It would still take a while to sit around and guess all 400 in a locker room. And the double ball bearing mechanism obviates the far easier shimming vulnerabilities. But it's still surprisingly lame. I don't know why Master can't just make a decent combination lock, for people willing to pay.

[nothumbs]

Yes, that's exactly the behavior. Good enough for me for a gym lock, but that's about it.

Working one's way up the food chain:

http://www.amazon.com/FJM-Security-Products-SX-875-Combination/dp/B006SRHWXW/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0QEV8JZ4EV9SKGZASAJ1

http://www.amazon.com/Squire-Locks-CP60CS-Recordable-Combination/dp/B0063CBEOU/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=0FAXH1VJNDHDHQGXK8XH

http://www.amazon.com/Squire-Locks-SS50-Security-Combination/dp/B0091P6SWY

But the costs escalate. Of course there are the old S&G combo padlocks, but they are a pain to open with 4 spins, 3 spins, 2 spins and so on.

[GWiens2001]

Thought the Abloy PL242 has an 8mm shackle. Will have to dig mine out and measure it.

Gordon

[gg555]

Yes, that's exactly the behavior. Good enough for me for a gym lock, but that's about it.

Working one's way up the food chain:

http://www.amazon.com/FJM-Security-Products-SX-875-Combination/dp/B006SRHWXW/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0QEV8JZ4EV9SKGZASAJ1

http://www.amazon.com/Squire-Locks-CP60CS-Recordable-Combination/dp/B0063CBEOU/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=0FAXH1VJNDHDHQGXK8XH

http://www.amazon.com/Squire-Locks-SS50-Security-Combination/dp/B0091P6SWY

But the costs escalate. Of course there are the old S&G combo padlocks, but they are a pain to open with 4 spins, 3 spins, 2 spins and so on.

Thanks for the suggestions. I spent some time already looking into those Squire locks. It seems they have easy methods to be decoded, even easier than the Master 20xx locks. The Squire locks require guessing about thirty numbers (or sixteen for the four number combination style) and it can be done in about a minute. I'm not sure if they're double ball bearing either. The FJM lock looks like it does not have a double ball bearing mechanism.

In the end, I'm not convinced that any of the multiple dial style combination locks are very good. They all seem to have pretty easy non-time consuming methods of being defeated. Without evidence to the contrary, I still think the Master 20xx locks are as good as it gets for combination padlocks (which is not saying that they're so great).

I suppose one could argue that the shrouded Squire and FJM locks are better because getting cut is a more likely method of attack. Even if they're simple to decode in sixty seconds, perhaps few people will bother in a locker to room to do that.

I don't think the S&G combo lock would be very good in a locker room. Yes, it's not easily decoded. But it only has a hardened steel shackle, so it should be pretty easy to cut, compared to the boron alloy shackle on the Master 20xx locks or a shrouded shackle on the Squire or FJM locks. As many have noted in this forum, the point of the S&G lock is to make any attempts at tampering obvious, not to be super hard to cut or otherwise be broken apart.

Thought the Abloy PL242 has an 8mm shackle. Will have to dig mine out and measure it.

Gordon

Looks like it has a 10mm shackle. It also seems to be discontinued.

[dbhdbhdbh]

I am not a lock expert either, so the following is what I have gathered from reading this site and others.

I had come on here in the past with similar questions and got the same treatment. I think it is because these are lock enthusiasts, not security enthusiasts. The locks, in and of themselves, are interesting, how they work on the inside, and what is involved in defeating them, as a sport.
The expert pickers on this site might be interested in whether a particular lock could be picked or bypassed in an elegant hobbyist manner. They would think it as best useless to employ a very high security lock on an otherwise low security installation like a gym locker. Brute mechanical attacks of sufficient violence will always destroy a lock, but to lockpicking fans, this is not interesting. Although the lock enthusiasts know more than the rest of us about the brute force side, it does not appeal to their interests.


Anyway, from advice here (for the locks) and elsewhere for the mechanical issues I ended up concluding that a higher security lock, like an Abloy 330 or 340 was about the sweet spot. Not too expensive, not too ostentatious, not too heavy. Shackle thin enough to fit on a gym locker (esp the 330). Secure enough to withstand the attacks that a casual criminal might use in a gym.

I am not that worried about a crook cutting the shackle on such a lock with 3-4 foot bolt cutters. First, they would have to bring that big tool to the gym with them, then use it while no one walked in on them. I convinced myself they would use shorter cutters and limit themselves to things they could cut with them. Secondly, the toughness of the shackle ceases to matter as soon as it is stronger than the metal to which it is attached. Part of the reason that they would not bring a 4-foot bolt cutter to cut a lock is that they could leave the lock alone and cut the metal to which it is mounted with a much lighter tool.

When people post youtube videos of lock shackles being cut, they put one handle of the bolt cutter on the ground and use their weight on the other handle. Using a locker with the lock too high off the ground would prevent this maneuver and make using big bolt cutters a lot more difficult- provided again that the thief would even try.

I don't think enough like a criminal to know whether a fancy looking lock would attract more attention, or lead the crook to go after a less imposing looking device. Some giant $1,200 S&G lock with raised shoulders would certainly be overkill. The crook, I assume, would not bother attacking the lock at all. Depending on what equipment was at hand, he might break the locker open out of curiosity- if he had the tools, time, and privacy to cut or break the attachment or locker door itself.

I have some S&G combination padlocks for other purposes, but occasionally use them for gym lockers. I gather the shackles are more readily cuttable than the Abloy, but as discussed above, I don't think it much matters. Dialing in the combination is a lot more trouble than using a key.

For a gym locker, I keep my phone, keys and ID with me at all times. That leaves only my clothes in the locker, and I figure no one is going to steal them. When I did suffer a locker theft, they left my clothes, so I think they would be safe even if someone did break in.

[dbhdbhdbh]

Shackle hardness. I don't think you can extrapolate that one manufacturer says their shackle was hardened using a boron method that it must be stronger than a hardened shackle, method not specified. It seems the relative strength will depend on exactly what they did, and you would need either a degree in metallurgy or the results of a test to tell you which shackle was stronger. Apparently hardening can make metal more brittle. So a very hard piece might be harder to cut or saw, but easier to break by hitting it with a hammer. Which is better? Depends on how it will be attacked.

A security expert who knew what sorts of attacks were likely, how different metal treatments performed and had more detail than just "we used boron" might be able to figure out which shackle material would be best for a particular application. Without this information or knowledge, I don't know that "boron", by itself, is useful in choosing a lock.

[GWiens2001]

Shackle hardness. I don't think you can extrapolate that one manufacturer says their shackle was hardened using a boron method that it must be stronger than a hardened shackle, method not specified. It seems the relative strength will depend on exactly what they did, and you would need either a degree in metallurgy or the results of a test to tell you which shackle was stronger. Apparently hardening can make metal more brittle. So a very hard piece might be harder to cut or saw, but easier to break by hitting it with a hammer. Which is better? Depends on how it will be attacked.

A security expert who knew what sorts of attacks were likely, how different metal treatments performed and had more detail than just "we used boron" might be able to figure out which shackle material would be best for a particular application. Without this information or knowledge, I don't know that "boron", by itself, is useful in choosing a lock.

Very well stated, DBH. Also, the tempering process has a great deal to do with the strength and resilience of metal. The same metal can be heat treated to be extremely hard - but brittle, less hard - but less brittle. It can be hardened, then annealed. There are many ways of heat treating metal, which greatly affect the resistance to cutting, shattering, or other threats.

When you start throwing in specific (but unknown) metallurgy, comparing shackles between brands becomes all but impossible without purchasing all the models being compared, then subjecting each to the same particular tests desired. That gets expensive in a hurry. Certainly won't be purchasing an $800 lock just to see what it takes to destroy the lock. Won't even be doing that with a $50 lock - can't afford it.

Gordon

[nothumbs]

As someone who owns a Masterlock 20xx combination lock and uses it on my gym locker, I would add that I've been in some gyms who's lockers won't accommodate that lock. At my primary gym no issues. I'll also note that the lock 'signals' when you've dialed the third number, so it's really a two digit combination lock. I'm personally not concerned that someone might try to decode the lock while in use (my gym has fairly high traffic in the locker room). The population of locks I see in use at the gym is quite diverse, and most are very low security. My combination lock does not stand out too much, but an educated and determined thief might notice it's slightly different than the run of the mill combo lock.

I can't imagine someone attempting to bring in and use a 36 inch bolt cutter. The most common theft issue is an unlocked locker, not DE or NDE entry into a locked locker.

[AspiringLockpicker]

In England I am seeing electrical power sub-stations that are all over the place, being protected by the CEN grade 3 Abloy PL330, either in protec or protec2 I am unsure which. I am slightly baffled why the National Grid would use a "medium/high security" CEN grade 3 padlock when they could go 1 step further and have a CEN grade 4 which would at least be "high security".

Do you think a 330 with it's 8mm boron shackle is sufficient to protect electrical power sub-stations? Is this endorsement confirmation that the 330 is adequate for higher security applications than the CEN grade 3 might lead one to believe?