Lock for Gym Locker. Master 2001? Abloy PL330?

[gg555]

I know this topic has been discussed before in these forums and I've read the couple threads on this topic, but they are kind of old. I thought it might be worth asking again in case there's any new information out there.

Like some others, I was disturbed to learn (thanks YouTube) how easy it is to open a Masterlock 175 combination lock in a couple seconds with a thin piece of metal (amongst other methods). So I'm trying to figure out a better lock for the gym. I have a couple questions:

1) How much more secure is the Master 2001 "high security" combination lock (also sold as 2002 and 2010). See: http://www.masterlock.com/products/product_details/2001. I'm aware (from Googling) that there is (or was?) a decoding method for this lock (and all Master combination locks) because Master apparently follows a pattern in assigning combinations, rather than doing it randomly (WTF Master?). How much of a concern is this problem in real world scenarios? And other than this problem, is the Master 2001 vulnerable to other methods of being opened? (Aside from cutting.)

2) I prefer a combination lock, because for swimming there's not really a good place for me to put a key in my swim suit. That being said, is the Abloy PL330, which also has an 8mm boron alloy shackle, like the Master 2001, any more resistant to cutting than the Master? Or are they both about equivalent? How hard would it be to cut a boron alloy shackle like this?

2a) I know I could get a shrouded shackle (like the Abus 83CS/45 or an Abus disc lock) to have more cutting resistance. But I have mixed feelings about this. Some argue in the old threads that you don't want a lock in the gym to stand out too much, because it just calls attention to the locker and a thief would be more likely to target it, which they could do by prying the locker open and it wouldn't matter how good the lock is. I personally think the Abloy PL330 just looks like an average lock and would not attract attention, unless the thief knows about the Abloy brand, which seems unlikely. But a lock with a shrouded shackle, even to someone who knows nothing about lock brands, does to me scream heavy duty high security lock and could attract attention from an otherwise ignorant thief.

That being said, I do think there is a counter argument, which also appears in older threads here, that a heavy duty shrouded lock is a deterrent because there are easier targets to move on to. Given that prying open lockers has not happened, to my knowledge, at my gym, but cutting locks has happened (some people use terrible, almost luggage style tiny locks), maybe the deterent effect is worth it. But then maybe the boron alloy shackle is good enough, if it can't be cut easily and a thief would just move on to smaller locks.

3) Any other suggestions for a lock with a 8mm (5/16 inch) shackle?

[somenewguy]

I know a guy who had an $8K Rolex stolen out of his locker at the gym. I suspect most of these crimes are committed by people who see something they want on you and target your locker (rather than randomly breaking in, though, you are generally guaranteed to find a wallet in almost every locker).

I know this isn't what you asked, but what about leaving your valuables in your car? There are some portable mini-safes that would slow down most average crooks. Maybe you could then leave your car key at the front desk and not in a locker. Does your gym have cameras in the parking lot?

Just trying to think outside the box, since lockers aren't really all that secure no matter what lock you put on them.

[Squelchtone]

I know a guy who had an $8K Rolex stolen out of his locker at the gym. I suspect most of these crimes are committed by people who see something they want on you and target your locker (rather than randomly breaking in, though, you are generally guaranteed to find a wallet in almost every locker).

I know this isn't what you asked, but what about leaving your valuables in your car? There are some portable mini-safes that would slow down most average crooks. Maybe you could then leave your car key at the front desk and not in a locker. Does your gym have cameras in the parking lot?

Just trying to think outside the box, since lockers aren't really all that secure no matter what lock you put on them.

You just gave me a great idea...

how about something like a small lock box that attaches to something inside the locker and locks in place, so even if they get past the master lock combo padlock outside, there's a little portable safe inside which also has a combo lock on it and is braced into place somehow. Maybe have it so when the little safe is open, a lever inside can be pulled to make the walls of the safe expand to fit the width of the locker and jam in into place, then you close the lid, spin the dial like a real safe and go swimmning. granted, you'd have to bring this thing in with you each time, but maybe it could fit in a back pack?

OP: has anything happened already at your gym and people know that someone is using bolt cutters to remove locks, or are you just being proactive in case?

Thanks
Squelchtone

[gg555]

Thanks for the replies.

There's not really a big problem at my gym. As Squelchtone asked, I'm just trying to be proactive. Like I said, the Master Lock 175, which I currently have, seems supremely insecure and easy to open. No? I know there's no perfect lock, but it seems I could do better than that. (And there is not a rampant problem with locks being cut, I just know that it has happened on occcasion in the past. I'm imagining it was done with something easier to hide than 36" bolt cutters and it was the smaller locks that were vulnerable, but that's just guessing on my part.)

I don't think leaving things in my car would be more secure. The parking lot would be an even easier place at my gym to go unnoticed. I did think about a lockbox in the car, or something like that, but of course the car could be stolen. Anyway, I'm not sure it's a better solution.

The idea of something secure that goes into the locker (or even that could be put in the locker to somehow help defeat attempts to pry open the locker) is a nice idea. But I don't think I'm going to invent that and it's a little hard to imagine exactly how it would work in reality. And I don't think such a thing currently exists for purchase.

Anyway, versions of these sorts of ideas are in the older threads I've seen in the forum and I considered them. But I don't think they're the solution to my situation.

So I'm just trying to improve my padlock situation (given that the Master Lock 175 seems like it can be opened in less time than it takes to enter the combination, with basically no special skill and a simple tool). As I note in the OP, I have a few questions about the padlock options that weren't fully covered in the older threads on this topic that discussed locks like the Master 2001 and the Abloy PL 330.

So I'm still interested in the questions above, about how the Master 2001 and Abloy PL 330 compare in terms of the difficulty of cutting their boron alloy shackles. How hard it is in general to cut an 8mm boron alloy shackle. What the weak points of the Master 2001 are and how much of an improvement it really is over the Master Lock 175. What is the real risk of decoding in a locker room with the Master 2001. Etc.

My questions about the locks are all in the OP. Answers to those questions are really what I'm looking for. Honestly, I really did spend a good amount of time researching all the old threads I could find hear and elsewhere, before posting, and tried to focus my post on questions that did not seem to be answered clearly elsewhere.

Thanks for any help with those questions.

[somenewguy]

I'm not really familiar with the Master 20xx, other than seeing them online and in videos. I am familiar with the Master 1500 type locks, which is probably what most of the people in the gym are using.
The 1500 locks have a code on the back which corresponds (not directly, you need a codebook) to the combination. I don't know if the 20xx type have that. The Abloy locks do not have anything printed on the outside of the lock corresponding to the key bitting. (There was very esoteric attack that involves figuring out the disk numbers stamped on parts inside the lock, but not to worry; nobody at the gym is going to be employing this type of attack (it requires cutting a key and lots of time))

The Abloy 330 may be overkill, but you could rest assured that nobody is going to be casually picking it open or cutting it with small bolt cutters. You then have to keep the key with you, though. My opinion is as long as you don't have the standard $7 Master lock (whether combo or pin-tumbler or wafer), you are probably light years ahead of everyone else in the gym. Of course, you may bring additional scrutiny to your locker with a lock that doesn't look like the rest, so you'd have to be relatively sure that there aren't any other bypasses in the locker system itself that lets someone get into the locker quickly/quietly/easily regardless of the lock used.

I think a few more bits of info might be helpful:

1) If you are privvy to it, do you know the details of the past burglaries? Were the locks cut?

2) What are you securing in the locker? Do you have just the standard work clothes and wallet? Or do you have an expensive watch or keys to an expensive car?

If it were me choosing between the two locks you mentioned, I'd probably buy the Abloy (but let it be known I have a thing for locks which is influencing my decision) and wrap the body in black electrical tape to at least try to make it blend in.

But it seems like a real pain to have to carry a key with you, especially if you're swimming. Abus makes some 3 and 4 wheel combo locks which are better, but still decodeable. Then there's a Sargent and Greenleaf 8077, which is very secure but huge and obvious.

Whatever you do, I do agree you should ditch the Master 175 as soon as you can.

[gg555]

Hey somenewguy,

Thanks for the thoughts.

Yes, it does look like just about everyone else at the gym uses a Master 1500. And then some even cheaper smaller locks. And there's one wayward disc lock, that clearly the gym tried to cut off at some point and then gave up, so that locker has been left permanently locked.

Thanks for the tip about Master Lock having a code on the back. I don't know about the 20xx either. I guess I could just file something like that off. What I read was that both the 1500 and the 20xx are subject to decoding, because Master used a pattern in how they assigned combinations (rather than random selection). So this reduces the number of combinations you have to guess. I'm assuming the average locker room thief would not do this, because it still takes twenty or thirty minutes. And, pehaps even more important, it requires applying some rudimentary math skills. I'm not expecting this kind of focus from random locker room thiefs.

I would like to know if the Master 20xx is vulnerable to any kind of shimming or other attacks of that nature. Or is the only way to open the Master 20xx to either guess the combination or cut it?

In this vein, Master says the 20xx has a, "fully recessed dial resists knock off attempts." Recessed how? It doesn't look recessed to me. What does this mean? What's a "knock off attempt" and is the 20xx vulnerable, since it only "resists" these?

I'm also curious, as I asked above, if there's any reason to think the Abloy PL 330 8mm boron alloy shackle is harder to cut than the Master 20xx 8mm boron alloy shackle. I found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EmVr_PBj-E It appears to show that the Master boron alloy 8mm shackle is harder to cut than a Commando Lock boron alloy shackle. So it would seem they are not all equivalent. Should I assume Abloy's boron alloy shackle will be even better (or worse)?

Also, putting aside Abloy's unpickable Protec lock are there any other advantages to the construction of the PL 330 over the Master 20xx?

*

That aside, yeah, I thought about the Sargent and Greenleaf 8077, but as you say, it's large and seems attention grabbing. I also read in other threads here that it's not that hard to cut. It's purpose is more to make it's obvious it has been tampered with, not to be the most undefeatable lock. The shackle, for example, is not boron alloy. The Abus four wheel combination lock is subject to the same trick of being popped open in seconds with a thin piece of metal, as the Master 175: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXRQdf7Trs8. Kind of just seems like the same lock with Abus' name printed on it. I don't think any of those wheel combination locks are good.

I don't have anything particularly valuable in my locker. Some things that are probably valuable to me and nobody else. I just would rather head off the hassle of any problems. Even an Abloy lock is a small price to pay, if it will save me some hassle in the long run. And I admit that I do think it's cool. Although as I said above, I don't think it would attract any more attention than any other lock. To me it just looks like a regular plain lock with a standard 8mm shackle.

[Squelchtone]

I'd recommend an ABUS 24/70 Discus padlock (10mm shackle though) because it is a chore to cut off with bolt cutters or a hack saw, the only issue is if you can fit it onto the locker's eyelets. An American Lock shrouded or a Brinks shrouded are also difficult to cut and not easy to pick since they have serrated and spool pins.

The American Lock A5300 is shrouded and has a 5/16" shackle which is roughly 7.9375 mm and sold as an "8mm shackle" body is made of steel. Example: http://www.padlockoutlet.com/A5300-Amer ... -44mm.html

hope this helps,
Squelchtone

[gg555]

Thanks Squelchtone.

You don't think the Abus disc lock or a shrouded lock like the American you suggest would fall into the category of attracting attention to a locker (where every other locker has some version of a Master Lock 1500 or even smaller and worse)? I also don't know if I can get a 10 mm shackle through the eyelets. I took an American round body lock I have (with I guess an 11 mm shackle) to the locker room and could not get it into the eyelet. Although I did see that one abandoned disc lock that I mentioned above, which I assume has a 10 mm shackle like the Abus disc lock.

That aside, I'm still interested if anyone has any thoughts about how hard it would be to cut the boron alloy 8mm shackle on the Abloy PL 330 as compared to the boron alloy shackle on the Master Lock 2001. And I'm also still curious what vulnerabilities the Master Lock 2001 has that I may not be aware of.

[GWiens2001]

Have had to cut an American 5260 padlock off at work a couple times. Have a 40" set of bolt cutters, and it was still tough. 3/8" shackle diameter, so it should fit if another lock has a 10mm shackle is being used.

Gordon

[gg555]

Have had to cut an American 5260 padlock off at work a couple times. Have a 40" set of bolt cutters, and it was still tough. 3/8" shackle diameter, so it should fit if another lock has a 10mm shackle is being used.

Gordon

Thanks Gordon.

Is the 5260 a boron alloy shackle?

As the Youtube video I link to above shows, two different 8 mm boron alloy shackles (one Commando Lock, the other Master) were very different. The Commando was much easier to cut. In fact, with 36" bolt cutters, he could cut the Commando lock, but not the Master. For what it's worth, the person who made the video claims that making the alloy can be done different ways, with different amounts of skill, so they are not all equal.

That's why I have been asking if there is any good reason to expect the Abloy 8 mm boron alloy shackle to be better (or worse) than the Master 8 mm boron alloy shackle. Off hand, Abloy is of course a much higher quality company. But their thing seems to be the Protec lock. I'm never surprised when something sold as fancier and better has poorer quality in some ways (don't get me started about the internal electronics of Apple products).

So I was just curious if anyone had any thoughts about the quality of Abloy's boron alloy shackle vs. Master.

[gg555]

Hmm, although here's a video of someone cutting a different (octagonal) 8 mm boron alloy shackle from Master, with 24" bolt cutters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au37YzhfTeQ

[Evan]

Have had to cut an American 5260 padlock off at work a couple times. Have a 40" set of bolt cutters, and it was still tough. 3/8" shackle diameter, so it should fit if another lock has a 10mm shackle is being used.

Gordon

Thanks Gordon.

Is the 5260 a boron alloy shackle?

As the Youtube video I link to above shows, two different 8 mm boron alloy shackles (one Commando Lock, the other Master) were very different. The Commando was much easier to cut. In fact, with 36" bolt cutters, he could cut the Commando lock, but not the Master. For what it's worth, the person who made the video claims that making the alloy can be done different ways, with different amounts of skill, so they are not all equal.

That's why I have been asking if there is any good reason to expect the Abloy 8 mm boron alloy shackle to be better (or worse) than the Master 8 mm boron alloy shackle. Off hand, Abloy is of course a much higher quality company. But their thing seems to be the Protec lock. I'm never surprised when something sold as fancier and better has poorer quality in some ways (don't get me started about the internal electronics of Apple products).

So I was just curious if anyone had any thoughts about the quality of Abloy's boron alloy shackle vs. Master.

What you really have to ask yourself is whether or not all of this pondering is required when there are many numerous hand tools that are about 12" in length which could be used to open the locker with your lock still securely attached to the eyelet in the locked position...

Either leave expensive stuff in your car or carry it around from station to station with you in a small workout bag if for whatever reason you aren't driving to your workout -- if this is still impossible then you need to leave whatever you are worried about at work or home, because far fewer people have access to your stuff if you leave it locked up in your locker or desk at work or at home... There is always at least one "member" at a gym that is at the very least an opportunistic thief let alone an experienced one who could steal without leaving an obvious indicator of tampering...

So then having a fancy lock on a gym locker is basically about the same as parking an expensive sports car equipped with an alarm system in the "bad part of town"... Sometimes its just gone with no traces left behind when you come back... But put something flashy out in the wrong place and you attract the attention of the sharks who know a little something...

~~ Evan

[gg555]

What you really have to ask yourself is whether or not all of this pondering is required when there are many numerous hand tools that are about 12" in length which could be used to open the locker with your lock still securely attached to the eyelet in the locked position...

Either leave expensive stuff in your car or carry it around from station to station with you in a small workout bag if for whatever reason you aren't driving to your workout -- if this is still impossible then you need to leave whatever you are worried about at work or home, because far fewer people have access to your stuff if you leave it locked up in your locker or desk at work or at home... There is always at least one "member" at a gym that is at the very least an opportunistic thief let alone an experienced one who could steal without leaving an obvious indicator of tampering...

So then having a fancy lock on a gym locker is basically about the same as parking an expensive sports car equipped with an alarm system in the "bad part of town"... Sometimes its just gone with no traces left behind when you come back... But put something flashy out in the wrong place and you attract the attention of the sharks who know a little something...

~~ Evan

Yes, I have read your comments to this end in other threads and appreciated them. It's a good point. But it's not the only point.

As I said in the OP, I read the threads on this topic that already exist and did a lot of research first, before positing my question. And I believe I have a few questions about specific aspects of certain locks that were not answered in past threads. I don't need to have the same things that were already said in those threads reposted here, though I do appreciate your point.

I really would just like some answers about specific locks (which I have posed above, regarding the 8mm boron alloy shackles and possible vulnerabilities to the Master 20xx series locks). I thought this was a forum about locks, where there are people knowledgeable about them are willing to answer questions about locks. I was not looking for general advice about security and I'm not particularly interested in explaining all the the details of my day to day life and why I have made the choices I've made, beyond what I have already explained.

It seems like a mistake that I mentioned the context in which I want to use the locks (though I was trying in good faith to follow the "read this before posting" sticky at the top of the forum), because answers have focused mostly on that context and repeating what has already been said in other threads and not focused on the types of locks I was asking about and the questions for which I was unable to find answers in other threads (or elsewhere on the internet).

Whatever else I do to enhance my security at the gym, I still need to select a lock that for my purposes is a good as possible, without attracting undo attention. (I don't think that all "fancy" locks look especially fancy. Some of them look rather mundane. So in that regard I think the expensive sports car analogy does not entirely work.)

[somenewguy]

OP, I appreciate that you are trying to find out something very specific, but it may be that nobody here has ever compared these two specific locks to each other (The Master 2001 sells for about $20 and the Abloy 330 sells for about $80 in the US [~$60 in Europe] so they are in different price categories). Perhaps you should buy both and attempt to cut them both with the same bolt cutters and/or hacksaw blade and see which one fares best?

[Evan]

I really would just like some answers about specific locks (which I have posed above, regarding the 8mm boron alloy shackles and possible vulnerabilities to the Master 20xx series locks). I thought this was a forum about locks, where there are people knowledgeable about them are willing to answer questions about locks. I was not looking for general advice about security and I'm not particularly interested in explaining all the the details of my day to day life and why I have made the choices I've made, beyond what I have already explained.

It seems like a mistake that I mentioned the context in which I want to use the locks (though I was trying in good faith to follow the "read this before posting" sticky at the top of the forum), because answers have focused mostly on that context and repeating what has already been said in other threads and not focused on the types of locks I was asking about and the questions for which I was unable to find answers in other threads (or elsewhere on the internet).

Whatever else I do to enhance my security at the gym, I still need to select a lock that for my purposes is a good as possible, without attracting undo attention. (I don't think that all "fancy" locks look especially fancy. Some of them look rather mundane. So in that regard I think the expensive sports car analogy does not entirely work.)

So you come to a locksmithing forum and ask questions about strength of materials and metallurgy ?

So what is your actual concern ? How big a set of bolt cutters are required to chop the lock off the locker to steal your stuff ?

If you actually considered the feedback you are getting you should have been able to figure out you are obsessing on an esoteric property of the lock in question which will have zero impact or defense against the most common Modus operandi of thieves within the environment and application you are proposing to use your security device: prying attacks...

So because of whatever personal issues you have with your rigid inflexible routines and inability to use risk reduction behaviors/mitigation techniques you have found yourself fixated on how difficult one lock is to cut versus another... The answer is: with how you want to use your lock the attribute/concern in question is completely irrelevant...

So if you wish to ignore sound security advice that is fine, but your question goes beyond the typical experiences of locksmiths and hobbyists and is now a very specific question about materials science regarding the ultimate tensile strength of the lock components and metallurgy regarding the best alloy to use to construct the components in question... It seems you are asking a question beyond the scope of this forum and not appreciating the knowledge that is being provided to you...

~~ Evan