Picks for anti-pick keyways

[mmcc]

Increasingly, I am encountering the following keyway:



Ignore the fact that the photo shows it on a euro cylinder, I am finding the keyway itself on various types of locks. Mainly on typical front door locks.

I have a few cut-away locks with this keyway in them. I have tested each of my picks and most of them have problems setting any pin after the 3rd or so. I'm assuming this is the entire point of the keyway.

So, are there any recommendations for dealing with this??

[MrAnybody]

As you've mentioned, this keyway is pretty common. In Europe, it's a pretty standard simplex keyway (E1R PARA). It's a roomy keyway compared to many, and accessible with any slimline tools. You'd probably wont have an issue with regular Petersons etc either.

I don't think you'll find this keyway as a challenge in setting stacks 3, 4 or 5. I pick a lot of locks with this keyway, and I don't find the challenge you describe. I am intrigued though, and I'd be happy to help and look at what's happening.

What happens when you try to set a binding stack in position 3, 4 or 5?

[GWiens2001]

That appears to be a keyway using the Yale Y1 key, or similar. Typically we use a pick with a narrower shaft and roll it around the warding in the keyway. It takes a bit of practice, but keep at it.

Good luck and happy picking!

Gordon

[MrAnybody]

Just had a dig around and found probably the same CISA as your pic. No problem setting here. I guess what's needed is a little tweak in technique.

I got Yales with the same.

[mmcc]

From what's being said, it would appear that I need to get my hands on a slimline pick set. I have a Klom set as shown in the below pic.



Any recommendations?

[MrAnybody]

Any recommendations?

SouthOrd has some good options if you want some slimlines: http://www.southord.com/Lock-Picking-To ... -Euro.html. There's probably some good deals out there with 3rd party retailers.

Saying that, from what I can see from the Kloms you have, you'd be OK. I don't have any myself, so you're the best judge of that. Can you get move around the pin stacks OK with the Kloms?

[mmcc]

With the Kloms, there does not seem to be much room to move. After the 3rd pin, it is virtually impossible to push the last pins down enough for them to set. Also, they appear to be too thick to work around the keyway itself. I have managed to pick some of the cutaways, but it seems only to work with the thinnest of the picks in the set. So, I can't put a lot of pressure on the pins.

I will check out the Southord, are there any other good suppliers? Also, while I am asking, what are the best picks on the market?

[MrAnybody]

I will check out the Southord, are there any other good suppliers? Also, while I am asking, what are the best picks on the market?

Google the SouthOrd set that's within your budget and you'll find a few retailers. Also dependent on which country you're in. There's plenty of options for retailers that sell SouthOrds.

Petersons also do slimline picks, and are considered as a better quality, but of course you'll pay a lot more. SouthOrd are very adequate for the job, and their prices are much better.

.... After the 3rd pin, it is virtually impossible to push the last pins down enough for them to set. Also, they appear to be too thick to work around the keyway itself. I have managed to pick some of the cutaways, but it seems only to work with the thinnest of the picks in the set. So, I can't put a lot of pressure on the pins.

What sort of movement can you get without the tension wrench in the keyway? Can you get on top of the stacks then? Do you get any more room when you try a smaller tension wrench in the bottom of the keyway?

[mmcc]

The tension tool does not obstruct the pick in any way. The problem is that as we approach the rear pins in the lock, the pick does not have enough length at the hook to push down the pin. Any of the picks that do have enough length, would get jammed in the keyway and not reach the rear pins.

[GWiens2001]

Don't forget to check our sponsor, lockpickshop.com!

Gordon

[Squelchtone]

The tension tool does not obstruct the pick in any way. The problem is that as we approach the rear pins in the lock, the pick does not have enough length at the hook to push down the pin. Any of the picks that do have enough length, would get jammed in the keyway and not reach the rear pins.

I have a similar Klom set, but it is in a zip up case. There are many hooks included and they are all slim line. I would have no problem picking that Y1 Yale keyway in your pick with any of the hooks in that set. That said, all the other profiles in that Klom set are just wacky and useless. I think they would work better to open cars instead of pin tumbler house locks.

The bitting in locks is going to vary from one to another, so what works in one Y1 may not work in another, meaning that the hooks you have may not feel like they're pressing own on the pins in the back far enough, but on another lock just like yours you may not have to press as far down on the pins, it's all driven by the bitting of each lock.

You could always use top of keyway (TOK) tensioning, or center of plug tensioning since euro cylinders are mounted 180 degrees off what we call top and bottom in the USA, and that would give you much more room for the pick shank to go under deep pins to press down on shorter pins.

Squelchtone

[mmcc]

Perhaps this image will explain it better:



In this image we can see the pin much better. The green area above is the space you have for a pick. The shape of the keyway prevents the pick from being moved above this because you would need to work around the keyway. With a larger hook, that's impossible. If you note the size of the gap above the pin, marked by the green area, it is much smaller than the pin itself. This means that any pick will need to be smaller than the range of movement in the pin. This means pins cannot be set. The area marked in yellow is where the tension tool would be.

How do I deal with this?

[Squelchtone]

With a larger hook, that's impossible. If you note the size of the gap above the pin, marked by the green area, it is much smaller than the pin itself. This means that any pick will need to be smaller than the range of movement in the pin. This means pins cannot be set. The area marked in yellow is where the tension tool would be.

How do I deal with this?

Ok, so you're saying 10 years of people here picking Y1 keyways successfully is wrong compared to your logical observation? Most of us here can pick that lock without any issue. The only thing I can suggest is that you practice more and get hands on and you will see it for yourself. At first glance, sure your logic makes sense, but it is not so in practice. That keyway is pickable with euro and non euro hooks, as well as half diamonds, S rakes, L rakes, Bogotas and other pick profiles and shank thicknesses.

Also, the yellow area where the tension tool would be is wrong. If you put a wrench there it would quite often drag against the lock housing.

[mmcc]

Squelchtone, I am asking HOW it is done? I'm showing everyone the problem I am having. I'm obviously doing something wrong. For some reason, I cannot get the pin to go far enough into the bible to set the pin. I have a few cut-aways and I can see that the pins are barely a third of the way down inside and no matter how I move the pick, I can't see to get them to move any further.

I can just about make it around the keyway with the pick. Then I start having a different problem. Let's say I did this with the second pin and set that pin. Now the first pin, including its key pin, gets shoved into the bible by the pick. So, the deeper I move into the lock, each pin before the one I am working on gets shoved into the bible.

What am I doing wrong?

[Squelchtone]

ahhhh ok, sorry, I thought you were doing some theoretical thing without actually picking.

ok, instead of the yellow area for the wrench, put the wrench vertically in the area you did not shade in at all, you may have to experiment with different thickness wrenches for a good fit so it doesnt cam out while applying pressure. Likewise, a center of keyway (top of keyway) wrench would work well on that little hooked curved part of the keyway.

As to shoving pins into the bible, you dont actually have to push the key pins all the way down in order to pick the lock. All we need to do is push the pins down enough to push the driver pins out of the plug and into the bible, so we're not actually pushing all the pins into the bible. What I'm saying is that while you're pushing on the key pins, they don't have to disappear out of view or be pushed down into the pin chambers all the way, only deep enough as the real working key would move the pins in order to create a shear line.

You can also insert the picks into that keyway at a 45 degree angle which will give you more room to operate, the picks do not have to be inserted directly under each pin.

keep practicing, you'll pick it soon enough.

Squelchtone