The mathematics behind Bogotas.

[Steelbacks]

Hi, new member here so I hope I'm not breaking any rules posting this here, but im interested in peoples' views on this.

Basically, I have some Bogotas. I've also made some of my own and I also have some Bogota variants (Sohos, etc.).

Anyway, it struck me that if you follow Raimundo's instructions, there's a particular formula for creating the right sized Bogata for a particular size of lock. Different sized locks should have different sized Bogatas to pick them, as far as I understand. Now, there may be some leeway between similar sized locks, but not identical in size. However, locks with hugely differing pin stacks should surely have separate picks to open them?

Just interested because I see Bogatas for sale, but not in different sizes, and haven't come across any discussions about this so far. Maybe it's just obvious to everyone else and doesn't warrant a discussion, but I have a feeling there may be people who aren't aware that the size of a Bogota pick should be dependant on the size of the lock you're picking.

Anyone want to comment?

[femurat]

In theory you're right, different locks should need different size bogota. In practice, if you omit the euro or us style handle, they are quite universal. Keep in mind that they move a lot in the keyway. The key doesn't. This is the reason why they are so versatile.

Welcome to the forum by the way

[nite0wl]

In theory, that sounds quite reasonable; in practice, it doesn't seem to come up. Tools like combs or bypass tools obviously need to vary in size and shape to fit different locks or keyways but the more 'dynamic' the tool is (how much you move it in the keyway) the less it seems to matter. As long as the pick can move, reach, and work around obstacles it will work.
I would be interested to see if altering the dimensions of a bogota might allow it to more easily set pins in locks with very radical high-low pining.

The thing that seems to have the greatest effect on the utility of Bogota-style tools is the exact shape. Compare Peterson's 3 variations (http://www.thinkpeterson.com/picks.html#EURO%20Series%20Picks), each of these behave a little bit differently and different locks respond in very different ways to each one despite the seemingly tiny differences.

[Steelbacks]

Some interesting comments. Thanks guys.

I should have some time on my hands over the coming months. I may well be living on a narrow boat over the next few months while my partner and I are waiting for our new home to be built, so I've already planned to take some time out to make some picks, tension tools, etc.

As far as the Bogatas go, I'm thinking of making some differing sizes, with length and space between the teeth of the picks dependant on differing spacing between pins in various locks. The pitch of the teeth will depend on the distance various pin stacks travel. Obviously many locks will be similar and I expect them to fall into size groups. I may use various sizes of padlocks I have to help me design different pick sizes and then test the results once the picks have been made.

Thanks again for your feedback. Looking forward to more discussions about locks, etc!

[GWiens2001]

Sounds like you are off to a hot start, Steelbacks. Look forward to seeing the fruit of your labor, as well as the testing/results.

Welcome to LP101!

Gordon

[nite0wl]

Very interested to see your test results. This may be the first time I have seen an experiment like this and it may give us some valuable ideas about how to improve on some tools.

[ggpaintballer]

I think the king and queen rakes are meant to simulate the key bitting. I'm not sure as I have very limited experience with them. Something else you may want to check out.

[Steelbacks]

Ggpaintballer, have you seen the Prince and Princess picks by Madbob lock picks? They make some nice picks and I got some last Saturday, including the Prince and Princess picks. They are just like some of the King and Queen picks that are around, but much more dainty and made of 0.6 mm sprung stainless steel, so they are ideal for locks with smaller keyways.

Not looked into King/Queen picks as such, but I'm guessing the same thing would apply with them as with Bogotas... small locks should have small pick profiles (if that's the right term?) so that the profiles work on the appropriate sizes of keyways and larger picks would be needed for larger keyways.

I guess we all have to decide, do we cut down our pick collections to minimise the number of tools we have to carry? Or, do we carry tools for every kind and size of lock we might pick from time to time? I don't think that either option is particularly sensible or practical, but understanding how each pick works in a lock, what it can do, and what it can't, can help us decide what we want to use, and when and how.

Thanks for the input!

[ggpaintballer]

I will have to check those out. He is a UK seller? To be honest I almost always go to spping. I learned that way so I am faster at it. I will rake when getting frustrated. I think the king and queen are made to set high low bitting where the traditional bogata is designed to defeat less extreme pinning. I would rather carry a medium hook, gem, deforest, even a gonzo over an assortment of rakes. I know the hooks will open most anything. The only limiting factor is my skill.

[Valdo]

I will have to check those out. He is a UK seller? To be honest I almost always go to spping. I learned that way so I am faster at it. I will rake when getting frustrated. I think the king and queen are made to set high low bitting where the traditional bogata is designed to defeat less extreme pinning. I would rather carry a medium hook, gem, deforest, even a gonzo over an assortment of rakes. I know the hooks will open most anything. The only limiting factor is my skill.

Raking is usefull to false set spools/serrated pins, using both techniques can prove more usefull than only one of the two.

[Steelbacks]

Madbob is, as far as I remember, and I hope I don't get any of the details wrong and upset anyone, a small family run engineering company here in the UK. Madbob met a lock picker who was saying how good picks were hard to find. One thing let to another and the company now makes a relatively small range of really good picks cut from 0.6mm/0.0236" 301 stainless steel.

I may have the details of how the company started up making picking tools a bit wrong, but that's the jist of it. Finish on tools is way better than most companies. I bought a set of three double-ended picks for £9 a couple of weeks ago. That's around £1-50 a pick if you ignore the tension tool that came with the set. That was a special offer and the prices have gone up a bit now, and I know if you're in the US you'd have to pay more for shipping, but if I were you, and given what I've seen some of you say about buying picks in the US, I'd bite the bullet and get a set. Check the website out. Easy to find if you Google 'Madbob picks' (other search engines are available). Should maybe add that I also bought a couple of deep reach tools to get to those high pins at the back of the stack you sometimes get, usually hiding behind at least one low pin. Very happy with the tools!

I don't work for the company, or have any connection with them. I don't get any commission or benefits of any kind. Just my honest view of them as makers of tools. Suggest anyone interested just looks at their site.

[nite0wl]

I think the king and queen rakes are meant to simulate the key bitting. I'm not sure as I have very limited experience with them. Something else you may want to check out.

King and Queen picks, along with the three Falle picks (Hump, Valley, and Slope), the "Long Ripple", and the Short Jag or Wedge, are all technically classed as Jagged Lifters. Jagged Lifters are supposed to be held at varying angles and lifted towards the bible. The varying angles along with their shape is supposed to approximate various common key bittings (or averaged key bittings) and many of these tools are entirely unsuitable for use as rakes (either for obvious reasons such as blunt flat tips, or because of weak shafts or bends in the working section of the tip as in the case of the King/Queen or the Falle tools). Tools such as the Long Rake/Ripple do make a decent combination tool, equally at home as a Jagged Lifter or as a Rake, others like the Falle Slope and Hump can be used as rakes with some caution.

I would strongly suggest exploring Deviant Ollam's talk and slide deck "Distinguishing Picks" (available on his website http://deviating.net/lockpicking/) and his book "Practical Lock Picking" which includes discussions of the techniques used with rakes, jigglers, and jagged lifters, as well as a visual guide to pick tools including common names and suggested uses for each tool.

[tacit_guardian]

I would be very interested in examining the success of the "Bogotá" as there seem to be lots of copies and variants. The success (subjectively) seems to be pretty high for this tool. I would propose a few things for your examination:

Height of peaks

Distance between peaks

A scale ratio, possibly height/distance or something to that effect (as several designs appear to be scaled version of the same parametrics)

Angle of the peak slope, or radius of the curvature should it be a linear relationship

If we're going to try and describe and examine why these are effective we're going to need to characterize the tools in use, and some properties about locks such as the statistics on pinning/bitting and number of pins.

I have often wondered.. the "Bogota" is certainly very suave looking, and I've seen it work in person and in videos. But would a shorter one be better for 4-5 pin locks and a longer one be useful for 6-7 pin locks? Etc? Questions worth answering, I think.

We can easily enough sketch up some parametric models and describe some behavior, using engineering design software and scientific computing software such as Mathematica. I guess the question is, do we have enough actual, objective data to do the analysis?

Cheers
T

[Shifty1]

I have taken to making bogatas along the line of the Peterson variations for some time now as I did feel that I was burning on a good many locks that were on the brink of a timely opening and just hung there . And so I noticed this Ray chap made his bogys from blue steel street bristle about .113" wide x .030" thick. And if you are carefull not to remove too much material from the width of the bristle from filing and polishing you might finish around .109". I get this ready made width from windshield wiper inserts at .110" and if I'm careful finish at .108".

I've made them all : sabana, montserrat fore and aft, doubles, triples etc., but now I use custom-sheared stainless that mics out at .168" wide x .032 thick to achieve a wide variety of widths no greater than about .127" after filing and polishing. I have them at .112" and .120" wide also. ( btw I've got a padlock bogy at .072"wide) My center to center spacings are at .249" and .223" +/- .003". and I just use verns to mic the spacings. The included angle of your flanks forming the wave should be within a few degrees of 45. Adjustments can be made on multi-peaked tools by a slight stepping of the peaks by .006" thru .017" making up for some but not all hi/lo utility. The only locks I am intrested in have pin spacings from .150" thru .165" and so I keep with only 2 different kinds of spacings when creating tools.

However, I would consider the opinion of the fellow on youtube who holds that the "less tool in the lock the better" approach to bogy manipulation.The mechanical advantage considered in bogy handle design in many ways makes the tool what it is - and when paired to a single hollow diamond or short hook for a pick tip, makes for a minimal yet formidible tool in the right hands. Its a feedback thing.

Oh yeah, the Reina pair fashioned by Madbob are supurb. A deposing cousin to the King and Queen - I think they're slick and have earned a place in my tool pouch. I think I'll buy their wavy deep reach tool... if not just for its esthethic value.

And as far as the math goes, raking is a chance thing not rocket science. I would'nt knock myself out. However, Majestic has realized in steel a matchless set of computer generated rakes that in my experience will for the most part outperform bogys on the bench and blackboard but not in the field where time and luggage matters. Gotta go..... Peace out and pick a lock!

[YouLuckyFox]

However, I would consider the opinion of the fellow on youtube who holds that the "less tool in the lock the better" approach to bogy manipulation.The mechanical advantage considered in bogy handle design in many ways makes the tool what it is - and when paired to a single hollow diamond or short hook for a pick tip, makes for a minimal yet formidible tool in the right hands. Its a feedback thing.

Are you referring to this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er0IMH6SZ1c#t=255