Raimundo's Picks

[stick]

I want some.

[Guesss]

i am with stick on this one... rainmundo you should give information if you are will ing to sell them. i am sure there are many people on here who would be will ing to get them from you.

i just thought that maybe the info is on the site somewhere sorry i didn't search before i posted this time.

[omelet]

Omelet, your final paragraph seems to suggest that a 90 degree angle on the tensor can somehow transmit rotation better than a larger angle. You might rethink that, perhaps bend a few yourself, and consider the tulip knob while doing so

I did rethink it, and stick to what I said. Simple mechanics tells us that a 90 degree angle will transmit torque due to force on a lever arm better than any other angle. The converse is true also: any rotational feedback from the plug will also transmit a larger force to your hand than if the angle were larger.

As to the tulip knobs, you can reach the recessed core just as well by using such an angle that you have already, with a second bend that is perpendicular to the shaft of the pick. This will solve both our concerns.

[rakemaster]

If you want to throw around technical words, try to learn what they
mean.

A tensor is a muscle (or a mechanical part) that stretches something.
It is also a mathematical concept generalizing a vector.

you probably do use tensor muscles to pick locks, but they arent
made of metal (unless your bionic) and they arent bent at a 90 degree
angle.

I think your talking about torque.

thanks, my mech engineering prof is no longer freaking out.

Rakemaster

[MrB]

omelet is exhibiting the folly of youth.

raimundo has obviously thought about these tools and they are acclaimed by others as being everything he says they are.

Asking why they are designed the way they are is good; telling Ray he got the design wrong is silly.

[frostbyte]

omelet is exhibiting the folly of youth.

raimundo has obviously thought about these tools and they are acclaimed by others as being everything he says they are.

Asking why they are designed the way they are is good; telling Ray he got the design wrong is silly.

Somebody is exhibiting the folly of brown-noser

Omelet is trying to make a suggestion that might improve the design. Are you saying raimundo's tools are absolutely ideal and have no room for improvement?

The tools look to be of excellent quality, and for that raimundo certainly deserves respect for his pick design and manufacturing skills. It doesn't however mean that the designs cannot potentially benefit from constructive criticism.

[raimundo]

The only significant parts of the tensor are the blade that applies pressure to the lock and the place where the finger applies pressure, if the part inbetween goes north south or east is wholly immaterial, I have never seen a tensor with an angle, they all seem to have curves, some tight curves some larger radiuses, Tensor is a term to avoid the word wrench, which gives a false concept, if your professor has apoplexy over that, he should lighten up. I have used tensor often, but I might go to torker, it has a nice look in print. If you have any more terms to teach me, list them here.

[MrB]

No brown nosing here.

The way to suggest improvements to a tool is to try it out and then give feedback based on your experience. One of the most important factors in tool design is ergonomics, and that is notoriously hard to predict from a diagram or photo.

It is hardly likely that optimum transmission of torque at the bend is the most important factor in a torque wrench. Other factors like the connection between wrench and plug, comfort in the hand, clearance for fingers and other obstacles near the door, ability to finely control the tension applied and a host of other things could be more important.

[stick]

If you want to throw around technical words, try to learn what they
mean.

A tensor is a muscle (or a mechanical part) that stretches something.
It is also a mathematical concept generalizing a vector.

you probably do use tensor muscles to pick locks, but they arent
made of metal (unless your bionic) and they arent bent at a 90 degree
angle.

I think your talking about torque.

thanks, my mech engineering prof is no longer freaking out.

Rakemaster

Are you going to continue and rant about how the term "tension wrench" is incorrect too? It gets the idea across; that's good enough.

[rakemaster]

Tensor is a very specific term that has nothing to do with the concept
in question.

if you want to deliberately use the wrong word, be my guest, but
other people may be bananaed by it, and it makes you sound kind
of forklifted.

Rakemaster

[frostbyte]

How about tensioner. It's not an official english word that I know of, so we'd be free to bend it to our will without offending the english purists

[rakemaster]

There's already a good word for it: wrench, which is a tool
that provides mechnical advantage via leverage to turn a part.

I've heard the term turning tool also.

A tensioner is a part or tool that adjusts tension, which is also wrong
for locks.

Tension wrench is wrong but at least it's a commonly used word.
Tensor is a word that means something different, it's totally wrong.

No offense meant to anyone esp. ramundo who I have a lot of respect for.

Rakemaster

[master in training]

of course you could call it "that little metal thingy you use to turn the lock", but it may be a bit long!

[omelet]

omelet is exhibiting the folly of youth.
raimundo has obviously thought about these tools and they are acclaimed by others as being everything he says they are.
Asking why they are designed the way they are is good; telling Ray he got the design wrong is silly.

What is silly is to accept something without question. If younger scholars never questioned the ideas of their older, more established mentors, where would we be today? You are now reaping the benefits in terms of comfort and enjoyment of life due entirely to that mindset, not to mention all the actually "silly" things you would believe otherwise (though most people still believe some pretty silly notions, but I won't mention any because that might get this thread locked ).

I respect raimundo for his obvious wealth of knowledge on this subject, and creativity in making these unique tools. I plan to rip off some of his ideas for my own picks; thanks man! I will be standing on the shoulders of a giant, to paraphrase a familiar quote. This is how we grow as a culture (and lockpicking "culture"): by snowballing information, but firstly making sure it is correct through questioning and testing. It is the most effective means of progress.

I have no doubt that these particular ones are great, but as frostbyte mentioned, who is to say they can't be better? You will notice if you look at several pictures of his picks in different threads, he has experimented with many different designs. He obviously isn't completely satisfied with some versions, and maybe not even with these...why should you be?

If you actually read my first post, you would notice that I said "One suggestion." A suggestion is not "telling", it is merely offering a viewpoint that can be accepted or rejected. Evidently it has been rejected, but I felt it was because of misinterpretation of what I had said before. And I still don't believe I have been understood, but I'll shut up after this.

I have never seen a tensor with an angle, they all seem to have curves, some tight curves some larger radiuses

The angle I mean is between the part you push with your hand, and the part inserted in the lock. Like you said, it does not matter what goes in between there but it does indeed matter what that angle is between the two.

If you took what you have to the extreme with a 178 degree angle, say, then how well do you suppose the force you apply on the end of the torquer (not "torker") will transmit to the plug? Most of the force will just push the end of the torquer to the side and put sideways force on the plug, and hardly any will put torque on the plug. You could easily reduce the force applied by making the lever arm (part that you push) longer, but it will proportionally increase the sideways force because the torquer is now in effect pivoting at the front of the keyway. This sideways force is what I was pointing out could be a problem in terms of keeping the tool in the keyway and not interfering with the shell.

By putting a right angle, you minimize the force needed to torque the plug, and thereby reduce the sideways force on the torquer also. This was the only point I was trying to make, and it is grounded in physical fact. I welcome you to point out where I have erred in my analysis of the situation because that is only fair.

It might be a small point, but I treated it as such until the idea was misinterpreted and then I was patronized. If you don't think that it makes a significant difference, say why you think it is so, don't insult me or reject my ideas without due consideration. I have treated people here with respect and expect the same back.

As for this whole torque/tension/torsion wrench discussion, I have some to say, but I believe this is not the thread for it, and I must relinquish the floor to others for their response to this.

[MrB]

The main reason an exact right angle is not too important though, is that efficiency of torque transmission is not the crucial detail when picking a lock. Delicacy of touch, precision of control and sensitivity of feedback are more important. The last thing you want to think of is actually applying force to the lock, which is why the term "wrench" can be unfortunate.

What it comes down to is designing things for their "feel" rather than purely mathematical efficiency. Picking locks is as much art as science.