Best material for picks ?

[Squelchtone]

So don't talk about things your not an expert on?
That would leave us all with nothing to say.

Dude. No offence, but we are having a fun productive conversation. I guess shut down the thread if you want. You have the power.

whoa, easy tiger, why would I shut anything down? I might be an admin, but I'm a member too, and I like to participate and opine on things just like everyone else here.

I just think a thread on 'best material for picks' should have a practical side to it that would be useful to our do it yourselfers, not a dream list of some exotic alloys that were developed for the space program. I still stand by the idea that picks are simple tools and normal run of the mill stainless or carbon steel is just fine to make them out of. again just my opinion, I'm not trying to tell anyone here what is fact or impose any kind of my way or the highway kind of mentality.

I sent you a PM, please take a look.
Squelchtone

[Drifty Flintlock]

I freely admit I don't know very much about metal, which is why I'm wondering what's good for picks. The general answer seems to be it's pretty hard to tell just from looking at the properties, which is fair enough. I bought a sheet of 316 stainless, and hopefully I'll be sharing some pictures soon.

Sadly the metal shop who I asked to make them suspects my motives may be impure, so we'll see. Depending how it goes, I may experiment with other materials in the future. Nothing too exotic, titanium at the weirdest, just curious about performance differences.

[WestCoastPicks]

So don't talk about things your not an expert on?
That would leave us all with nothing to say.

Dude. No offence, but we are having a fun productive conversation. I guess shut down the thread if you want. You have the power.

whoa, easy tiger, why would I shut anything down? I might be an admin, but I'm a member too, and I like to participate and opine on things just like everyone else here.

I just think a thread on 'best material for picks' should have a practical side to it that would be useful to our do it yourselfers, not a dream list of some exotic alloys that were developed for the space program. I still stand by the idea that picks are simple tools and normal run of the mill stainless or carbon steel is just fine to make them out of. again just my opinion, I'm not trying to tell anyone here what is fact or impose any kind of my way or the highway kind of mentality.

I sent you a PM, please take a look.
Squelchtone

I understand. But you gotta admit it sounded a bit condacending.. Very few people are experts on anything.
This is a forum for people to discuss topics they may or may not be an expert on. Your post read to me very much like:

Why are you guys still talking about this? I have it all figured out, so should you. If your not an expert why bother even discussing it? Oh and by the way I'm not an expert either but here is what I have to say about it.

To me. And maybe just to me, it came off as very passive agressive, very hypocritical and controlling.

Starting off a post by telling people they aren't an expert on the subject they are discussing is kind of a show stopper. What could possibly be gained by typing that?

[GWiens2001]

I don't think he took offense so much as for most people this is a hobby. Most people here do not know metallurgy at all, let alone the finer points of it. I certainly don't.

You are certainly welcome to talk metallurgy in this thread. We have seen a number of threads along these lines go sour, and he was trying to head it off. We apologize for perhaps overstepping when it is not really needed.

Gordon

[Jacob Morgan]

I'm as interested in metallurgy as anyone. I work in the metals industry, but on the non-ferrous side for many years now. I'm not a metallurgist but I have worked with some for years and I used to be a process engineer at a rolling mill where I worked with a metallurgist every day, and I did take a course in it way back at school. There is a spectrometer where I work now, but the test standards are all for non-ferrous metals. I also grew up with a black smith shop behind my house where my father, a blade smith, did a lot of heat treating the old fashioned way. These days he is using some programmable furnaces, used to it was mainly by eye and a lot of different quenching liquids and trial and error and some strange tricks. I should know a lot more about metallurgy than than I do. If anyone wants to see what the world of metallurgy is about there is a good free reference here: http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf

Having written all that, Squelchtone sort of has a point. There is no lecture in materials science where the professor goes over just the right alloy for things like picks, that is not how it works. Metallurgy is a science about hitting specific physical properties and the way to hit them is by chemistry and processing (work hardening and heat treatment). Engineers start with target physical properties and work backwards to find the right material, not the other way around. The problem is that picking is an art, not a science. There is no text book perfect physical properties for picks and thus no text book perfect material. It would be trial and error, for alloy selection and heat treating, on finding anything better than blue tempered 1095, or for that matter a street sweeper blade. And no offense, but a few of the metallurgy-related posts made here have been sort of ill-informed. The threads here are usually good in that if they go off in the wrong direction one of the real locksmiths we are lucky to have, or someone else with a lot of experience, will jump in and straighten things out. I probably know more than some people on this particular topic, but mainly I know what I don't know and I am a little worried that there may not be anyone here who can straighten things out if they go off track, or if they police each post there could be some hurt feelings. For the thread to be constructive going forward it really needs to be about what people have actually tried, not so much what they heard somewhere, or think sounds good, or have tried to figure out in theory without really having the proper background. I would love to see some posts about people trying this or that material and how it worked out. It would also be constructive to reverse engineer known good pick making materials so a person could buy it in bulk if they wanted to, which was what the OP was after, I think. At the same time, I don't expect that there is a great deal to be gained over the known good materials for picks. Personally, I think a focus on what one will do with the metal is more important than the type of metal.

[Drifty Flintlock]

I'd like to report that 316 stainless didn't pan out at all. I had some picks cut by water jet, and while the shapes came out (mostly) reasonably well, turns out the material choice was a poor one. It's just way, WAY too soft to be useful, despite several attempts at hardening. The rakes were bent after a single use, and a few bent just in polishing. I don't think I was especially hard on them either. My cheapo SouthOrds hold up drastically better at the same thickness.

So. Not doing that again. I'll try again soon though, this time either with 301 full hard stainless or 1095 spring.

[Jacob Morgan]

I'll try again soon though, this time either with 301 full hard stainless or 1095 spring.

Thanks for the report, if you try 1095 could you let us know what sort of hardness it came with, or if you did your own heat treatment what that treatment was?

[Drifty Flintlock]

Will do.

Also I just found a site that says heat treating stainless doesn't really work, only cold treatment, and I don't have the equipment for that. In this case for the 316 it was basically just experimenting with a blowtorch with various metal colors and quench methods. I was working with a family member who knows much more about metal in general than I do, but doesn't work with stainless much. After conferring with him, I've decided on 1095, and may try 301 at a later date. It'll probably be a while before I report back, but I'll post something when I do it.

[mjwhit]

301 full hard should be more than enough for picks, theres also the 440 which should be even tougher. Some manufacturers use 301 stainless (MadBob an example that advertises it on their site).

The other (obvious) advantage of stainless is rust resistance.

[Jacob Morgan]

Only some stainless steels can be heat treated. But heat treating heat treatable stainless it is not easy. My father has been a custom knife maker for a long time, was part of the American Bladesmith Society, the Knife Makers Guild, etc. Carbon steel he heat treats himself. Used to it was by color over a coal forge, these days it is with a Paragon computer controlled furnace. But stainless he always sends out to a specialist to be heat treated. With stainless it is not the old country blacksmith method of quenching the metal from cherry red then drawing a temper, with heat treatable stainless it has to hit a given temperature and stay there for a time, then possibly change temperatures and stay there for a given period of time, etc. There is basically a time and temperature road map to get from one crystalline structure to another. If a person wants to go stainless they would probably be better off finding metal that is already of the right hardness and then not overheating it if it is going to be ground. One hint on metals for picks, if metal works for knives it should work for picks too. 440 series stainless is popular for knives, but it may be hard to find it in an already hardened state and thin enough for picks.

Last weekend I was working with some 1095 in the garage. I was messing around with making a curved Falle style pick and for me that takes a lot of grinding with a hand grinder. To make life easier I annealed the blank (heat to cherry red then set aside to cool slowly). Ended up holding the blank on edge so the torch flame could hit both sides, otherwise the metal would try to warp. Did the grinding then to harden it used a propane torch to heat the pick to cherry red then quenched it in water. Kept it swirling in the water to avoid warping. At that point it was hard, but too hard. Polished it up on a belt sander then back to the propane torch to heat it up until it just turned blue, then set it aside again to cool down slowly. Put in it a pan full of vermiculite from the garden, anything that insulates it to slow the cooling down. Did the final polishing (with a Cratex point in a rotary tool) after heat treating. The process did result in a little scale, so this process will not result in a perfectly smooth pick (a cosmetic issue only).

Regarding the Falle pick, it is an interesting design. Even with a bottom of the keyway wrench one can lever off the bottom of the keyway with the pick. Tried it after grinding (but before heat treating) and ended up putting a bend in the very tip of it to one side--that got it around the obstructions in an SC1 style keyway. Need to make one with an opposite bend some day. It is not my new go-to pick, but it is interesting.

[Drifty Flintlock]

I'll keep that in mind. Basically, a couple posts around the internet said 316 stainless is good for lockpicks, and I foolishly assumed that because it has stainless in the name that it would be hard enough. And sorry, you're right, it's 300 series stainless that can't be heat treated. At least according to the internet, which is never wrong about anything ever.

I'm not a knife expert, but I might know one. I'll see what they think about metals.

[kwoswalt99-]

Last weekend I was working with some 1095 in the garage. I was messing around with making a curved Falle style pick and for me that takes a lot of grinding with a hand grinder. To make life easier I annealed the blank (heat to cherry red then set aside to cool slowly). Ended up holding the blank on edge so the torch flame could hit both sides, otherwise the metal would try to warp. Did the grinding then to harden it used a propane torch to heat the pick to cherry red then quenched it in water. Kept it swirling in the water to avoid warping. At that point it was hard, but too hard. Polished it up on a belt sander then back to the propane torch to heat it up until it just turned blue, then set it aside again to cool down slowly. Put in it a pan full of vermiculite from the garden, anything that insulates it to slow the cooling down. Did the final polishing (with a Cratex point in a rotary tool) after heat treating. The process did result in a little scale, so this process will not result in a perfectly smooth pick (a cosmetic issue only).

So... what was the point of hardening it?

[inJapan]

Ive never tried saw blades or wiper blade thingumajigs. Ive always made mine from hair pins. They come in all sizes. I open it up straight. at first the joint kept cracking. just do it slowly. super slow. or super fast. open it up to 90 degrees. get your hammer. bam. i guess if youre fancy, just chop it in half and and give it some sort of handle. I make my handles from shrink wrap. for wires. when you heat it up it shrinks down nice and tight. put a few layers on and youre good to go. i have never machined any picks either. all filed by hand from start to finish. im really proud of my picks. but i must admit, id like to buy a professional kit some day.

as for quality, get a pack of nice expensive hairpins. I am not sure, but i guess ive picked about 1000 locks with each pick. and they are still going strong.

now i do have to add that they do get a little bent on occasion. id like to say its not because of my technique. but that would be lying. now and then i find locks that just dont open. i get pessed off and just tighten that tension. big smile on my face as i force those pins into place. one of those evil smiles as i know that lock is getting hurt. open the lock and, ha, how do you like that you stubborn pice of metal.

yes, that does happen on occasion, but my picks have lasted the years. im happy with my hairpin picks.

peace

[Jacob Morgan]

So... what was the point of hardening it?

The pick design could not all be ground out with my main grinder, had to use a rotary tool for part of it. Harder steel makes for slower grinding, so the steel was annesled to allow the grinding to go much faster. But from an annealed state it needed to be hardened again before use. It was mentioned to give an example of high carbon steel heat treating.

[bembel]

Even if it's unreachable for most people (but not as unreachable as "exotic alloys for space programs" ), I want to drop in AHSS.
These are advanced high-strength steels (or ultra high-strength steels) which are used in automotive productions lately.
Let's see if someone comes up with AHSS picks some day.