Automotive locksmith business

[Walle]

First of all, hello Lockpicking101 members! I am reading this forum since a while but it's the first time I decided to post. I have a residential locksmith companies. I am doing business in Toronto, Canada. Our job with car is limited to car lockout. But we have a lot of call for car key lost.

Unfortunately we don't do this as of now. But we want to extend our activity to this field. As a residential locksmith I am kind of clueless in this field of business but after a lot of research (Thanks to lockpicking101) I think I find a good way to do so. But I have few questions before going to the spending phase:

1. I want to purchase the AD100 from advanced diagnostic with 11$ token for something like 6000$ but I was wondering if this tool will work for latest car (2014-2015)

2. Do I need to purchase more cable for all different type of car in Canada or what they provide will be enough?

3. Is there a way to make FOB key or I need to find a good supplier?

4. I have read something on Lockpicking101 that made me curious. Vin to keycode? So is it possible to ask the vin code to a customer who lost all his car key and make a new key from my shop without having to use the AD100 and going to the customer car?

5. So just to make sure I am on the right track. Am I safe to say that purchasing the AD100 + a lot of FOB key (Or a way to make them) and I will have anything needed to expend my business to the automotive field (Car key lost)?

[Tyler J. Thomas]

Walle are you a member of ALOA?

[Divinorum]

I will try my best to answer the questions I can.

1. As far as I know, when you go the token route you get free updates to the latest available software. Usually this includes most of the newest cares. I would call tech support and verify this.

4. VIN to key code means you can get the cuts for the key via the VIN #. You can't use VIN to key code as a way to get around having to program transponder keys. If the car is old and does not require programming then VIN to key code will generate a working key that starts the car. If the car is newer and has a transponder then VIN to key code will only allow you to create a working mechanical key that will open the door but NOT start the car. VIN to keycode is great when someone looses all their keys and have none to duplicate from. At the shop I worked at we would use the VIN to key code service and cut a cheap mechanical key first. Once we verified that the key opened the can and turned the ignition then we would cut the expensive transponder key and do the programming.

[billdeserthills]

Many of the newer cars are using sidewinder or laser cut keys, so if Your shop doesn't have this machine, you will need one to stay competitive
Your next problem is your either need a code machine or sets of depth keys, which can be expensive for these keys

[Tyler J. Thomas]

Many of the newer cars are using sidewinder or laser cut keys, so if Your shop doesn't have this machine, you will need one to stay competitive
Your next problem is your either need a code machine or sets of depth keys, which can be expensive for these keys

Exactly. So not only do you need a programmer but you need a way to cut and/or duplicate the keys.

Now, here's the kicker, you also need to find a way to generate them. It's not like the old days where you could impression a majority of vehicles with a blank, file, and pliers. U.S. manufacturers are following the lead from Europe and are using high security keys (even if only for backup purposes) and key generation requires specialty tools like Lishi picks or Kobra Readers, Determinators, Accureaders, etc. They aren't cheap.

Full automotive service requires HEAVY financial investment if you are starting from nothing.

If I were you, before I purchased a single tool, I would attend either LOCKMASTERS PURE AUTO week of classes or a combination of beginners automotive classes at the ALOA convention this year. Learn about automotive, ask the pros the questions, and really determine if it is something you're willing to invest in. I would also contact local sales reps from Advanced Diagnostics or JMA or whomever's products you're interested in - they can answer your questions.

My old boss sent me to the PURE AUTO classes years ago in Lexington. I learned A LOT; great classes. Once we figured out what we needed and what was required, he ultimately decided to only offer in shop automotive duplication. He purchased a 3D Pro to decode and duplicate the keys and JMA equipment to clone the keys. He's made his money back and then some but that was all he was willing to invest. Just like safe work or access control, automotive is a niche in the industry that requires a lot of knowledge - it's best to learn a good bit of that knowledge before you start spending money on equipment.

[billdeserthills]

One other thing to consider, on many new vehicles, the vehicle is now opened and started with a "prox" key, I guess it is referred to. The only lock is simply a "mechanical back-up"
and many times just on the driver's side door, as a last chance way to enter the vehicle if say, the battery were to go dead. I get the feeling that this prox key will change much
about the way these special keys will be programmed, in the future, especially if places like Wal-Mart begin to get involved in the programming of these new remotes.
Once the mechanical aspect of needing carefully crafted mechanical keys turns into a computerized piece of machinery that simply reads the old electronic program & installs the same
program onto a new device, there will be no need for a specially trained locksmith to do this work.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

We just seem like messengers of bad news, huh?

Don't get us wrong. There is still money to be made and will be for many years but dynamic has shifted. Locksmiths are really going to have to stay on top of things to stay relevant. But if they do, sky is the limit for money.

Guy I know had a deal with the big auction warehouse in Atlanta for side money. He'd park his truck where the purchasers picked up their vehicle. Often times they had 1 or no key. Guess who was right there? He said he made well over a thousand for a Saturday morning's work - and this was back in the 90s. No telling what could be made now.

The local pull-a-part junkyard has a locksmith just outside the yard in a roll up garage. He has parts but he can also generate keys, repair ignition cylinders, linkages, etc. A dedicated shop means he obviously has room to store inventory and parts but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to turn a profit. He told me his main source of income was either rekeying locks to match existing keys and generating keys. He also went into the yard from time to time to purchase entire sets of locks (ignition, door, trunk, etc.) for a model, clean them up, and sell them in packages in store or online.

Profitable niches.

[Walle]

Walle are you a member of ALOA?

I am not a member of the ALOA, I am doing business in Canada (Ontario and Quebec) I am registered at the BSP which is what you need here.

I will try my best to answer the questions I can.

1. As far as I know, when you go the token route you get free updates to the latest available software. Usually this includes most of the newest cares. I would call tech support and verify this.

4. VIN to key code means you can get the cuts for the key via the VIN #. You can't use VIN to key code as a way to get around having to program transponder keys. If the car is old and does not require programming then VIN to key code will generate a working key that starts the car. If the car is newer and has a transponder then VIN to key code will only allow you to create a working mechanical key that will open the door but NOT start the car. VIN to keycode is great when someone looses all their keys and have none to duplicate from. At the shop I worked at we would use the VIN to key code service and cut a cheap mechanical key first. Once we verified that the key opened the can and turned the ignition then we would cut the expensive transponder key and do the programming.

Very good to know, and I suppose the VIN to key code is useless as I will get it with the AD100 and I will need more than that to program it. But I was thinking about buying FOB key. If I understand you right I will not only have to program them but also cut them!

Many of the newer cars are using sidewinder or laser cut keys, so if Your shop doesn't have this machine, you will need one to stay competitive
Your next problem is your either need a code machine or sets of depth keys, which can be expensive for these keys

Any suggestion on what to purchase to cut laser key and sidewinder?

Many of the newer cars are using sidewinder or laser cut keys, so if Your shop doesn't have this machine, you will need one to stay competitive
Your next problem is your either need a code machine or sets of depth keys, which can be expensive for these keys

Exactly. So not only do you need a programmer but you need a way to cut and/or duplicate the keys.

Now, here's the kicker, you also need to find a way to generate them. It's not like the old days where you could impression a majority of vehicles with a blank, file, and pliers. U.S. manufacturers are following the lead from Europe and are using high security keys (even if only for backup purposes) and key generation requires specialty tools like Lishi picks or Kobra Readers, Determinators, Accureaders, etc. They aren't cheap.

Full automotive service requires HEAVY financial investment if you are starting from nothing.

If I were you, before I purchased a single tool, I would attend either LOCKMASTERS PURE AUTO week of classes or a combination of beginners automotive classes at the ALOA convention this year. Learn about automotive, ask the pros the questions, and really determine if it is something you're willing to invest in. I would also contact local sales reps from Advanced Diagnostics or JMA or whomever's products you're interested in - they can answer your questions.

My old boss sent me to the PURE AUTO classes years ago in Lexington. I learned A LOT; great classes. Once we figured out what we needed and what was required, he ultimately decided to only offer in shop automotive duplication. He purchased a 3D Pro to decode and duplicate the keys and JMA equipment to clone the keys. He's made his money back and then some but that was all he was willing to invest. Just like safe work or access control, automotive is a niche in the industry that requires a lot of knowledge - it's best to learn a good bit of that knowledge before you start spending money on equipment.

So if I understand correctly when you talking about ''Generating the key'' Are you talking about getting the VIN for the good cut? If that's so the AD100 should give me the right VIN and with a newly purchased FOB key I should be able to cut it and program it? Or you are talking about making the key from 0?

For the class it look very interesting and money wise before going blindfold in this business. Unfortunately I checked the official ALOA website and I didn't find much information about their class. So I then looked for the Pure auto class. The next class seems to be in August and a little less than 1000 kilometers (KY) from my location. Is there any class like this but in Canada?



First of all I would like to thanks you all for your great answers (Confederate, Divinorum and billdeserthills) I have spent a very long time doing my research and with a single post on lockpicking101 I finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. It look like doing car key for customer who lost them is more difficult and more expensive then I though. I still don't want to give up that early with this project but it might be the only solution. Your future answers will definitely close my decisions!

[2octops]

I think you are confused on some of the terms being used in previous post as well as what the equipment that you are talking about purchasing will actually do.

You need the ability to cut a key that fits the vehicle. There are many ways to do this and many different machines and tools that you can use. You can impression the key. You can disassemble the lock and generate a working key. You can remove a lock cylinder and read the code stamped on the cylinder. You can use a broker, dealership or NASTF to convert the vehicles VIN number to the original key code for the vehicle. The problem with the last option is if the code on file for the vehicle is incorrect or the locks have been changed and the code no longer works. At this point you must know the other procedures for generating a working key for the vehicle.

If the vehicle has is equipped with a transponder you will need a computer to program the transponder to the car.

The AD100 from China is a knock off copy of the old Advance Diagnostics original MVP. There are several reasons NOT to purchase this computer. The main reason is it is an unauthorized copy of a legitimate computer. Another reason is it will not support or program many vehicles that were made in the past 8-10 years. I would recommend something like an Advance Diagnostics MVP Pro since it will do cars through the current years and will continue to be upgradable as new software is developed. This will get you working on most American and Japanese vehicles. For some European vehicles you will need other specialty tools that are used to reprogram the EPROM on the vehicles computer.

A few good choices for a high security machine would be a Bianchi 994, Laserkey 3D Pro Extreme, Silca Triax E-Code, Futura or even a MIRACLE A6 or A9. All are fine machines that are computer driven code machines for high security keys and can also duplicate.

I have no clue what you are referring to as a FOB key. I think you are using the incorrect term for something.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

So if I understand correctly when you talking about ''Generating the key'' Are you talking about getting the VIN for the good cut?

I'm talking about generating the mechanical portion of the key, i.e. the key blade and the cuts on it. Before transponders, making a key from scratch was often referred to "generating a key". You could do it from the VIN number sometimes or by impressioning or even by sight reading the wafers. I guess one could now interpret the phrase to include the transponder aspect of it.

But I was referring to generating the mechanical portion of the key in my above post.

[Walle]

Alright, so I think I am right on track. Here's a quotation from Confederate that really helped me to start my business:

The local pull-a-part junkyard has a locksmith just outside the yard in a roll up garage. He has parts but he can also generate keys, repair ignition cylinders, linkages, etc. A dedicated shop means he obviously has room to store inventory and parts but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to turn a profit. He told me his main source of income was either rekeying locks to match existing keys and generating keys. He also went into the yard from time to time to purchase entire sets of locks (ignition, door, trunk, etc.) for a model, clean them up, and sell them in packages in store or online.

This idea, which is very great gave me another idea. Car auction are a very nice niche. And often the car is sold with no key or only one. So I checked one in my area with a good list of car and they give the VIN (Here's an example: 1HGEM21532L816803) Civic 2002

So I was thinking about putting one of my commercial van in front of each auction. I would have to take the list of the car VIN. Then order the blank key corresponding to each car and then cut them and program them. Right?

But, first question, how do I know which key to buy and how to cut it with the VIN number? (Example: 1HGEM21532L816803) Civic 2002

Then I will need to buy a laser cutter ( Bianchi 994, Laserkey 3D Pro Extreme, Silca Triax E-Code, Futura or even a MIRACLE A6 or A9 ) List is from 2octops, thanks to him.

Second question, which one of those cutter do you suggest for my goal? Need to be installed in a van

The transponder (MVP pro) after a lot of research I think this is the only choice to go.

And would I need a cloner or the transponder will do it?

So the transponder, the laser cutter and a good blank key supplier. I think with this I will be good to go right?

If you have any suggestion for good blank key supplier feel free too.

Thanks you very much
&
Best regards

[billdeserthills]

First Question is a good one, as far as I know You can hook up with a service that will sell you the code info you need by the vin number. Unfortunately they cannot guarantee that the code they have actually will fit the car. Many times, especially on vehicles found in an auction, the ignition lock has been purposely changed to keep the ex from stealing the car. When this happens, Nobody will have a record of the new key bitting that the ignition is now using and it might be cheaper at this point to simply replace the ignition once more, if the keys cannot be found.

Far as your second question goes, all of my key cutting equipment is at least 15 years old. I would likely have a stroke if I looked at the ridiculous prices key cutting equipment costs now.

I'm sure the MVP Pro won't do you wrong

[2octops]

So I was thinking about putting one of my commercial van in front of each auction. I would have to take the list of the car VIN. Then order the blank key corresponding to each car and then cut them and program them. Right?

LOL....Do you mean you want to take a list from the auction of vehicles with no keys and order keys for all of them in advance hoping that the buyer might hire you to cut the key after they purchase the car?

What kind of locksmith experience do you have? Where are you located? Are you actually a locksmith or just considering getting into the business because they make tons of money?

You are talking about spending well in excess of $10,000 up front on a gamble that you might sell a key to someone at an auction. That is bold considering you do not know how to make the key to begin with much less know how to use the equipment to program the key to the vehicle.

Are you serious?

[Walle]

Like I said in my first post we are getting 3-5 call for car key every week. And we don't advertise it. If we advertise it I am sure we can get more and with this auction idea it could be a great way to be get even more job. I am in the business since a while, but behind the scene. I have a DEP in Locksmith and I am a member of the BSP. But my main job is not really as a locksmith. I craft website, publicity (Adwords, SEO, stickers & brochure) and dispatching. And I want to expend our company to the automotive locksmith job.

So to answer your last question yes I am 100% serious. I am pretty sure if I start advertising for the automotive field I will get x3-x4 more job for car key + the auction. It will be a strike. I can order the blank key for each auction and keep the one that didn't sell for later call that's it.

If you have better idea or would like to help me feel free 2octops, I am here because yes I was totally clueless in the automotive field.I am seeking for professional help and I am ready to pay for it.

[billdeserthills]

Well for me, buying the tools to make auto keys just seems like a waste of money, I get maybe 2 calls a month to make transponder keys. The sad thing is I have been making auto keys for over 20 years and I am well versed in doing that, I don't make a big rush out of it, with picking & determinating tools, I am used to simply pulling a door lock, and making the first key to it, and then progressing that to fit the ignition, if the ignition hasn't already been replaced. Making a key that way does take extra time though, time You may not have to waste at the auto auction. Of course calling a vin# code vendor should fix most of that problem. I was just looking through my MBA catalog that I got yesterday and they don't even offer a vehicle key making school. I know Lockmasters does offer a class on making auto keys.