SFIC machine on a budget

[demux]

Hi,

I'm interested if anyone has any experience with inexpensive but quality machines for origination of SFIC keys at the "way too obsessed hobbyist" to "small professional job" level. Looking for something that is durable/accurate, but also won't break the bank. It doesn't have to be the fastest machine in the world, but I tend to work mostly with name-brand Best cores, so it should be able to reliably produce keys to Best factory specs and tolerances. No strong preferences on punch vs. cutter, or portability. Bonus points if it can handle Best PKS (W* keyway) keys. Primarily A2 system, but bonus points if it can also do A3/A4 either out of the box or with minor conversion.

Right now I have a Frankensteined homebrew system (may post pics sometime ), which works well enough for one-off things, but is a real pain to cut batches of >10 or so on.

Current things I'm looking at include the Pro-Lok Blue Punch, A1 Mean Green Machine, HPC1200CMB, and Framon #2. I had also been considering the A1 Pak-A-Punch, but based on some of the threads I've read in this forum, it seems like the accuracy may be somewhat lacking for larger jobs. Any other ideas are also appreciated. Electronic/computer machines are probably outside my budget.

Again, I'm most interested in things you have personal experience with, can recommend or not recommend, where the warts are on any of the above, etc. I can (and have) read the specs, but am looking for folks that have real-life experience using these machines.

Thanks.

[jeffmoss26]

If you are only doing Best, then a punch would be OK. We have a mix of Best OEM, and A1 mean green machines here at work.
If you want to be able to do all kinds of keys, then an HPC 1200 or a Framon would be a good choice - you can always buy different cutters and jaws/spacing blocks.

[cledry]

If you can find an old Ilco Universal code machine is very accurate for SFIC work.

[tpark]

As you may have read in other threads, I've had precision issues with my pak-a-punch IC setup. I wasn't cutting genuine BEST keys, so that may have been part of the issue. I now use a Framon 2 machine for cutting SFIC keys. There are some things you should be aware of. The stock clamp that come with the Framon machine doesn't have a tip stop, so you have to use a jig to locate the tip of the key. The stock clamp also doesn't work with the PKS keys, but the SFIC clamp you can purchase works well with the PKS keys. There are notches cut into the SFIC clamp, but if you are cutting a 9 cut the tool cuts into the clamp a bit, but after that's done you're good for future keys. The SFIC clamp also has a tip stop, so that's a bonus. The standard cutter wheel that comes with the machine has a narrower root cut, so you have to widen the cut by 10 thou if you're using this tool. The process is slower than cutting with a punch (since you're actually dialing in the measurements). The upside is that since you're actually setting the depth, any depth system is possible to cut.

I haven't cut all premium keyway system keys, just WA, WB, WC, WG onto Jet blanks. It looks like the clamp will work with the reverse PKS keys, but I haven't cut those yet.

You can cut keys that work flawlessly for standard SFIC locks with the standard Framon 2 machine, but if you have the SFIC cutter and the SFIC clamp, it's much faster and the shape of the cut is perfectly in spec.

If you're cutting office tower quantities of keys, this may be too slow, but for smaller jobs the Framon machine works well.

If you do have a pak-a-punch, you can cut the key a bit high, then adjust the cuts with a file and a micrometer. This also works, but it's more time consuming. The IC kits came with a cutter, but no die, so I had to purchase the die for the IC cutter separately.

[demux]

As you may have read in other threads, I've had precision issues with my pak-a-punch IC setup. I wasn't cutting genuine BEST keys, so that may have been part of the issue.

Indeed. Some of your posts, as well as others on this forum, are what kind of turned me off to the Pak-A-Punch. And also what prompted me to start this thread. Always better to hear the good, bad, and ugly from others who have firsthand experience using the products in question. So thank you for that.

I now use a Framon 2 machine for cutting SFIC keys. There are some things you should be aware of. The stock clamp that come with the Framon machine doesn't have a tip stop, so you have to use a jig to locate the tip of the key. The stock clamp also doesn't work with the PKS keys, but the SFIC clamp you can purchase works well with the PKS keys. There are notches cut into the SFIC clamp, but if you are cutting a 9 cut the tool cuts into the clamp a bit, but after that's done you're good for future keys. The SFIC clamp also has a tip stop, so that's a bonus. The standard cutter wheel that comes with the machine has a narrower root cut, so you have to widen the cut by 10 thou if you're using this tool. The process is slower than cutting with a punch (since you're actually dialing in the measurements). The upside is that since you're actually setting the depth, any depth system is possible to cut.

I haven't cut all premium keyway system keys, just WA, WB, WC, WG onto Jet blanks. It looks like the clamp will work with the reverse PKS keys, but I haven't cut those yet.

You can cut keys that work flawlessly for standard SFIC locks with the standard Framon 2 machine, but if you have the SFIC cutter and the SFIC clamp, it's much faster and the shape of the cut is perfectly in spec.

And thank you also for sharing your experiences with the Framon in such great detail. This is a most helpful review.

[demux]

If you can find an old Ilco Universal code machine is very accurate for SFIC work.

Thanks for the suggestion. That's one that I had not considered, but I can see how it would work well for SFIC stuff.

Hmm, looks like there's a guy on ebay that has both an old Universal and a Framon #2 for sale. Might have to jump in the bidding on one (or both) of those...

[RedE]

Framons make great SFIC keys with the right cutter. As someone has already though, the machine is not super quick in turning out cut keys.

If your only servicing one or a few keyways, then I'd look into getting a Best key combinator. The upside is they can be had cheaply on eBay, and the downside is they can't cut all the keyways. The older models are basically what is now an A1 Mean Green punch, and the newer key combinators are Rytans.

[GWiens2001]

Framons make great SFIC keys with the right cutter. As someone has already though, the machine is not super quick in turning out cut keys.

If your only servicing one or a few keyways, then I'd look into getting a Best key combinator. The upside is they can be had cheaply on eBay, and the downside is they can't cut all the keyways. The older models are basically what is now an A1 Mean Green punch, and the newer key combinators are Rytans.

That depends on your definition of 'cheaply'. Still tend to be over $500.

As for the ILCO Universal cutter that Cledry mentioned, there was one that just sold a couple hours ago on eBay for $86. Keep an eye open there.

Gordon

[demux]

Thanks to all who chimed in with their thoughts/suggestions on this thread. At the end of the day, I decided to go with the Framon #2, for a couple of reasons:

1. It took a bit of convincing for my wife to let me shell out for one nice code machine, short of actually quitting my day job and opening up a lock shop I doubt that will happen again. Even though I play with mostly SFIC stuff now, I'd hate to blow my one shot on a punch that locks me in (no pun intended) to just that forever.

2. I like that the Framon puts the operator "close to the metal" - i.e. the quality of the final product should be directly proportional to the skill of the operator and care with which the machine is used. If I take the time to fully learn my new machine, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't be able to produce keys that are just as accurate as those made on a punch. Maybe albeit a bit slower, but as I said in my initial question, speed isn't the most important factor here.

3. I also like that, as a fully manual machine, the Framon is "infinitely calibratable". E.g. if I find systemic errors in the keys it's cutting, I can easily compensate by dialing on or off an extra couple of thousandths as necessary. If a punch gets out of spec by more than whatever calibration mechanism the manufacturer has built in can compensate for, it would seem like your only option would be to replace one or more parts. As a corollary, I also like that the Framon is a straight-in feed as opposed to the HPC or similar code machines - seems like at the tolerances SFIC systems demand, that could actually make a difference.

4. I've both read on this forum and heard from others I know that Framon's customer support is top notch - that they stand behind their products and are easy to work with to make it right if there is ever a problem.

Unfortunately, the one I purchased is used from eBay, and comes without the code book. So I guess my next step is to get one of those from Hawley. While I'm at it, I'll probably also pick up a SFIC vice and cutter as tpark suggested. Unless anyone here has any of those things they're looking to part with...

Thanks again all.

[tpark]

Well - initially if you don't want to spend more money, since the your're actually dialing the measurements in, you might be able to find information from other manufacturers that will allow you to cut keys to code. If the tip spacing doodad is missing, you can easily make one. With the basic machine, you can cut keys that work perfectly in SFIC locks. I've purchased items from Hawley and he was great to deal with. Although it's not on their online catalog, you can talk/email with the people at lockpicks.com and purchase parts for this machine.