Bought a Framon

[demux]

RedE, no Medeco keys, so I don't have to worry about that.

tpark, thanks for the info about the tension screws. I did find a copy of the Framon #2 manual from their site shortly after the machine arrived, so I have gone through the process of doing all the calibration/tension adjustments, and think I have the machine set up where I want it (of course, I'll need to wait for the new belt to actually cut a few keys and check my work there).

GWiens2001, thanks for the link, most useful.

After some thought on the subject, it seems like I'll get the most bang for my buck by getting the IC vice and a couple of cutters. Probably some combination of the FC10031 for Schlages (since their root width is narrower), the FC9045 for general work, and/or the FC9054 for SFIC.

On the subject though, anybody have any experience or recommendations for/against using non-Framon cutters? Looks like the arbor on the Framon and on HPC machines are both 3/8", and I'm finding the HPC cutters that correspond to the Framon ones I mentioned above for $40-$50 less...

[RedE]

I use HPC cutters with no problems. You will have to adjust your spacing however as the Framon wheels are recessed on one side a little bit. I'm out and about right now, but I'll post pictures when I get home that explain this better.

[RedE]

So here's what I'm talking about...

An HPC CW-20MC (left) and a Framon CC-10 (right) are the examples in these photos.


(Photo looks cut off but it isn't... just open the link)

To help provide context it is imperative to understand that the Framon's spacing is calibrated to the FC8445 cutting wheel. This in turn helps to explain the reason why each wheel is recessed to a specific amount, which is because every wheel is of a different thickness. HPC can get away with out recessing their wheels because you don't actually dial in the physical measurements of the cut but rather just turn the needle to a specified points on their card. I've kind of made my Framon work similar to an HPC in this fashion, in that I have come up with my own custom center spacing for each type of cutting wheel. Therefore, yes you can use HPC wheels with a Framon if it doesn't bother you to come up with your own custom cuts and write them into your depth and space manual. No doubt is cheaper to go this way if you have the time.

I hope my exclamation is at least somewhat OK to understand? I found it kinda hard to explain it without having the wheels right there in your hand and a machine to show what's going on.

[demux]

I hope my exclamation is at least somewhat OK to understand? I found it kinda hard to explain it without having the wheels right there in your hand and a machine to show what's going on.

Yeah, I think I can visualize what you're getting at here. In other words, you're saying that Framon manufacturers its cutting wheels so that the center point is always in the same position on the machine's X axis, regardles of the root width or angle of the particular cutter in question. Once the machine is zeroed, it's zeroed for all Framon cutters.

So, if you wanted to use the spacing information from the Framon code book, you'd basically have to recalibrate the machine to the new cutter so that 0 on the micrometer was when the center of that cutter was in line with 0 on the vice.

[RedE]

I hope my exclamation is at least somewhat OK to understand? I found it kinda hard to explain it without having the wheels right there in your hand and a machine to show what's going on.

Yeah, I think I can visualize what you're getting at here. In other words, you're saying that Framon manufacturers its cutting wheels so that the center point is always in the same position on the machine's X axis, regardles of the root width or angle of the particular cutter in question. Once the machine is zeroed, it's zeroed for all Framon cutters.

So, if you wanted to use the spacing information from the Framon code book, you'd basically have to recalibrate the machine to the new cutter so that 0 on the micrometer was when the center of that cutter was in line with 0 on the vice.

Re-zeroing the machine each time you change the wheel out works just fine, and that's what I initially did when using HPC wheels. Though I've since decided that its much quicker to just adjust the measurements that I'm inputting into the machine. I'll try to explain this more by using what I did for Sargent as an example:

The default spacings are: 0.215 ", 0.371 ", 0.527 ", 0.683 ", 0.839 ", 0.995 ".
Using an HPC wheel they are: 0.268 ", 0.424 ", 0.580 ", 0.736 ", 0.892 ", 1.048 ".

This method saves you the time spent re-calibrating the spacing every time you need to change cutting wheels. The best way I found to determine the offset is to put a factory cut key into the vise like you were going to cut it and then turn the spacing crank until you align the cutter over one of the cuts. I would recommend that you pull the feed handle and have a flashlight and magnifying glass pointed at the cutting wheel so that you can ensure the wheel is exactly centered in one of the cuts. When you're for sure that its centered, record what spacing you have dialed into the machine and then its simply a matter of extrapolation to determine the data for all the other spaces.

At the moment, I only have two HPC wheels out of the nine total I have for the Framon. But as the original Framon wheels wear down, its likely that I will be replacing them with HPC cutters in the future.

[demux]

Re-zeroing the machine each time you change the wheel out works just fine, and that's what I initially did when using HPC wheels. Though I've since decided that its much quicker to just adjust the measurements that I'm inputting into the machine. I'll try to explain this more by using what I did for Sargent as an example:

The default spacings are: 0.215 ", 0.371 ", 0.527 ", 0.683 ", 0.839 ", 0.995 ".
Using an HPC wheel they are: 0.268 ", 0.424 ", 0.580 ", 0.736 ", 0.892 ", 1.048 ".

Since I'll probably only be buying 2-3 HPC cutters, I was thinking of just doing the calibration manually for each one once, then just build up a list of, "If changing from cutter X to cutter Y, add/subtract A thousandths to re-zero the machine."

The best way I found to determine the offset is to put a factory cut key into the vise like you were going to cut it and then turn the spacing crank until you align the cutter over one of the cuts. I would recommend that you pull the feed handle and have a flashlight and magnifying glass pointed at the cutting wheel so that you can ensure the wheel is exactly centered in one of the cuts. When you're for sure that its centered, record what spacing you have dialed into the machine and then its simply a matter of extrapolation to determine the data for all the other spaces.

Heh, yeah, this is actually the way HPC suggests calibrating the 1200 machine in the manual. I've got at least a few keys of known provenance from all the manufacturers I'd be cutting initially, so was already thinking of something like this.

[billdeserthills]

RedE, no Medeco keys, so I don't have to worry about that.

tpark, thanks for the info about the tension screws. I did find a copy of the Framon #2 manual from their site shortly after the machine arrived, so I have gone through the process of doing all the calibration/tension adjustments, and think I have the machine set up where I want it (of course, I'll need to wait for the new belt to actually cut a few keys and check my work there).

GWiens2001, thanks for the link, most useful.

After some thought on the subject, it seems like I'll get the most bang for my buck by getting the IC vice and a couple of cutters. Probably some combination of the FC10031 for Schlages (since their root width is narrower), the FC9045 for general work, and/or the FC9054 for SFIC.

On the subject though, anybody have any experience or recommendations for/against using non-Framon cutters? Looks like the arbor on the Framon and on HPC machines are both 3/8", and I'm finding the HPC cutters that correspond to the Framon ones I mentioned above for $40-$50 less...

Just buy used framon cutters
I get mine from Hawley Lock & e-bay I hardly use my Framons
I got one from my Dad in 94 and I never have replaced or sharpened either blade
I doubt I ever used the flat steel cutter at all yet