Commercial Storefront doors

[dmcintyre86]

Do most locksmith services you guys work for service, adjust or repair commercial Storefront doors? or do you stick strictly to the locking devices?

I was on a job at a local gym yesterday and encountered two spinning mortise cylinders in the door...missing retaining screws, no biggie...quick fix and all was good there.

then the owner brought to my attention that the door sometimes wont close all the way. it stays ajar about 2-3 inches off the frame and the owner was concerned because they run the AC constantly there. I had never adjusted these doors before but told him i would take a look and see what could be done.

I found the two adjustment screws on the frame that control how quick the door swings back and at what point it stops. I spent about 20 mins playing with the screw settings...trying to find that sweet spot...but i could not get it perfect for the life of me! It was def. 100% better than it was before but it frustrated me that i could not find the correct adjustment to get that door to stay set in the frame.

Needless to say the owner was still pleased with the improvement. It was just a new experience.

DO YOU GUYS SERVICE THESE DOOR ADJUSTMENTS? OR IS IT STRICTLY LOCKING DEVICES?

[cledry]

We replace pivots, hinges, install closers both surface and concealed, in header or floor mount, replace concealed vertical rod devices, install new locks, strikes, electric strikes, magnets, electrified exit devices. In short, everything except the glass and the actual door we supply, install, repair and adjust.

BTW, there may be too much positive stack pressure for the door to close or the arm may be installed incorrectly or adjusted incorrectly.

Positive stack can sometimes be sorted by closing the sweep adjustment down and increasing the latch speed and closer power. The slower sweep allows the air to escape. However you must still follow ADA codes for push pull force (6 pounds is the max where I work, we use a LCN force gauge), also the door must not close to fast or it will not meet ADA codes.

[dmcintyre86]

After making the adjustments, The door closes normally and stays closed until you barely bump it...then it slowly creeps open about an inch off the frame and wont come back to flush without a little help.

[GWiens2001]

Gremlins!!!

Gordon

[cledry]

After making the adjustments, The door closes normally and stays closed until you barely bump it...then it slowly creeps open about an inch off the frame and wont come back to flush without a little help.

Concealed closer? If so the closer is bad and needs to be replaced. Unless it is a center hung door it should take less than an hour, my record is 15 minutes. There is a rack inside the closer and it breaks teeth off and the symptom you describe sounds just like this.

If you post a photo of the arm, the adjustment screws and how far the door opens I can let you know what you need. It is good money because many locksmiths won't touch this stuff.

[2octops]

If it's center hung there is also an adjustment on the bar on top of the door that connects the door to the closer that allows the door to close in a certain position.

These are fairly simple to work on as long as you know where all of the adjustments are and there are several depending on the door.

Without pics, it's very hard to diagnose the problem and we are all just guessing,

[dmcintyre86]

This is not an arm type closer. Must be concealed. it is a commercial glass double door, metal frame and everything is internal. the only adjustments i found were two screws for each side. the left side door was fine but the right was the one that bumps out a bit still.

Unfortunately i don't have any pictures to provide.

_dave

[HeadHunterCEO]

Always take pictures of what stumps you . Very few problems are new and someone has likely solved it before

[DOORDOCTOR]

Hello, doordoctor here,


sounds to me that the stack pressure is pretty much "arm wrestling" with the closer, equalizing each other out and makes the door stand open at an inch from the frame.

3 things that can be done to fix this,

1, find a stronger closer, most of them OHC closers (Kawneer husky M-3, Jackson 20-330 or the Rixson #608 or the Dorma RTS series units) are offered in 3 different spring sizes. may be time to get the next strongest closer.

2. arm alignment screws (if the brand of closer/door has them) loosen the PUSH side screw, then TIGHTEN the pull side screw, this will angle the arm of the closer towards the pull side this will add preload to the arm, and may help keep door closed.

3. control the stack pressure (positive stack pressure) may need to have an HVAC mechanic come out and adjust the settings on the heating/air conditioning equipment to a lower fan speed so the doors will close without problems

cledry, what a small world, I think I have seen you on Flickr, (didnt know you were here!) I commented on a few of your photos in the past that had door closers in them, latest one we talked about LCN and the knockoffs of the LCN 4040 body

nice to see you here cledry,

-Jess the door closer doctor

[dmcintyre86]

Hey Jess,

I appreciate your reply to the post. I have made all the screw adjustments that i can to get the door as perfect as possible. I spoke to the owner last week and informed him that because it is in a gym and they do have the AC system blasting during the hotter days here in SoCal may be contributing to higher stack pressure. He understood and will be following up with his HVAC company to assess the situation.

I really appreciate you responding as well tho...this was new territory for me as i usually stick to locking devices and hardware. but i did get a lot of info for future reference.

[cledry]

Hi Jess, small world indeed. Yes, it was a photo on Flickr of us loading up doors with hardware installed ready to deliver and install. The closers were the General Lock 9000 series knockoff of the LCN. I might add that I have found them very good closers in their own right.

[DOORDOCTOR]

dmcintyre86,

glad you read my posting, hopefully lowering the stack pressure will help somewhat with keeping the door closed, many don't realize how strong the stack pressure is until they see the doors blowing open and think uh oh, closer is broken (broken teeth inside or spring snapped) when in reality its the sail effect (or like when you put your hand out the car window and hold hand vertical (pressure of the wind pushing against your flat hand)

then end up in a panic (hehe no pun intended) and have the closer replaced when the problem is the air pressure in HVAC system was set to too strong,

now that I read that you tried the alignment screws on the closer and no luck, the next best thing is to call out the HVAC mechanic to see what he can do to lower the pressure (I know it can be hot in Calif and heat and a gym do not mix well unless there's cold or strong fans/blowers running)

calling out an HVAC mechanic is also can be less expen$ive then buying a new OHC/transom closer (as those start at what, 400+ dollars depending on brand) but if still no luck, may be the last resort and get a new closer with next higher size (if the one already installed does NOT have spring tension adjustment, as some do have the tension adjustment screw on the ends of the spring barrels. good luck with my other idea and getting the gym doors to work properly again.

servicing closers can be an adventure, they can bring in some extra pocket money (charge for adjustments/installations and optionally, rebuilding services) not all the time is a closer an "open then shut case" and can be many reasons why they fail or have a problem. the closer can be a secondary problem (result of something wrong with the door installation/environment) or can be a primary problem (closer is the culprit to the door problem)

dmcintyre86, if you get stuck in a "jamb" when it comes to a closer, PLEASE, PLEASE let me know, as I may be able to help get you out of the "jamb" many questions I get are about the antique closers from 50's and 60's (those "potbelly" closers) as well as newer closers (floor closers too, all brands of surface and concealed, worldwide) so if you have questions, feel free to let them fly in a post or in the chatroom (slashnet network on IRC in #lp101) or if you google "Jess the door closer doctor" you will find many post comments I have made (flickr too, where I found Cledry) and how to contact me (email address)

cledry, ohh yes, I remember that photo soo well, the photo of the 3 doors on a (U-haul) trailer and you described about the hardware being on the doors before putting them in the frames at the installation site (less time spent on site)

I was not trying to be negative about General Lock's version of LCN in my comments about the doors/closers, was pretty much pointing out that people have to pay attention to the UL listings code on the spring tube label as well as the style of the "end plug" of the closer, as many people associate that style of closer with the famous earlier models of the LCN 4040 (commonly copied by other brands) and many times, the owners/end users will send their closer that is thought to be an LCN to the LCN plant then find out the hard way that their "block and tube" style closer is A KNOCKOFF and not the "real deal"

-Jess the door closer doctor

[femurat]

Hey Jess,

it's nice to see you around! When I red this thread, "doordoctor" came to my mind. And here you are!

Cheers

[DOORDOCTOR]

Hey Jess,

it's nice to see you around! When I red this thread, "doordoctor" came to my mind. And here you are!

Cheers

Femurat!!!! long time no chat!!


from seeing the date stamp on the postings (original poster) yes, I need to remember to pop in more often to see if there's any commercial door related questions I can give advice on,

my absence is because of the other closer questions, and many times on hangout on google+ as well and educating the public about closers (floor and surface units)

as well as answering questions from the closer factories and AHC's (architectural hardware consultants/locksmiths)

latest closer added to my collection, a Corbin #127 from the 60's (potbelly)

hope to hear from you more often in the future,

-Jess the door closer doctor

[Raymond]

Have to share a laugh about an aluminum store front door. I had just finished changing out the two cylinders on a door when the "responsible' person came over to talk. He explained that the door drags because the glass had been broken out and repaired twice. It was obvious that the door was no longer square. I explained that the door needed to be squared and braced before adjusting the pivot hinges. He immediately lifted up on the opening edge of the door which took it completely off the pivot. So, there he was holding the door, connected only by the closer arm, with a really stupid expression on his face. I wanted to start laughing and walk away but thought mercy was the better response. Since I was working for a third party service provider I could only help him get it back in place and not actually do the adjustments. I had to leave him with the correct wording to call for another service order. Helpful customers are such a blessing to our business.