Business Questions? Ask a Locksmith.

[noorudeenshakur]

Sorry for the double post. I would like to know if we have to posses a license in Ontario to be considered a locksmith, and if so how does one obtain this license?

I have been told that possession of locksmith tools are considered burglar tools in Ontario. But I have also been told that in order for them to be considered burglary tools, one must give reasonable rise to believe they are to be used for the commission of a crime. Hence if they are in your house, you are fine. Or if you are picking a lock in the park you are fine, or if you are pulled over in a routine traffic stop and they are in the glove box you are fine. But if you are in a dark alley outside an electronics shop dressed in black with a flashlight and tools in your hand you wouldn’t be fine. Would this be a correct assumption?? I've searched and can not find anything except Locksmiths Licensing Act, 1996 which was or is a bill, but I’m not sure if its law or not.

New to this hobby I wouldn’t want to pick up a criminal record just because I was ignorant to the law. We all know ignorance is no excuse to breaking laws.

I have also heard that in order to be a locksmith all one needs to do is have a business license, that states the business is a locksmith business, then one is legally able to carry tools with them out of their house because they would be needed in the course of work etc.

I would really love to hear a definitive answer on this, perhaps a few real Ontario locksmiths with a business can explain how one becomes a locksmith in Ontario.

What about the legal issues surrounding purchasing and selling these tools? Can I legally import tools and in turn sell them to anyone? Let say I wanted to open a lock picking shop in Downtown Toronto and sell to the public would I be able to do so legally?

Please help.

Thank you.

[Varjeal]

Sorry for the double post. I would like to know if we have to posses a license in Ontario to be considered a locksmith, and if so how does one obtain this license?

In short there is no pick license for Ontario. Your only requirement is for a business licence.

I have been told that possession of locksmith tools are considered burglar tools in Ontario. But I have also been told that in order for them to be considered burglary tools, one must give reasonable rise to believe they are to be used for the commission of a crime. Hence if they are in your house, you are fine. Or if you are picking a lock in the park you are fine, or if you are pulled over in a routine traffic stop and they are in the glove box you are fine. But if you are in a dark alley outside an electronics shop dressed in black with a flashlight and tools in your hand you wouldn’t be fine. Would this be a correct assumption??

Yes, technically every locksmith (and other person for that matter) carrying lock pick tools without a license is in violation of federal law. However, the federal law has put the onus on the provinces to provide such a license for the tools, so if none is available, I guess you can't get one huh?

I've searched and can not find anything except Locksmiths Licensing Act, 1996 which was or is a bill, but I’m not sure if its law or not.

Never heard of it...sounds like your going to need to contact a lawyer.
When you find out, let us all know.

I have also heard that in order to be a locksmith all one needs to do is have a business license, that states the business is a locksmith business, then one is legally able to carry tools with them out of their house because they would be needed in the course of work etc.

You do require a standard business license, but the license won't actually state that your legally able to carry tools, it's basically assumed.

In regards to purchasing tools, many have and do purchase tools on a regular basis with no repercussions. In regards to selling, if your going to do so you had better have a license to sell, and had better keep VERY tight records and tracking. Also, your going to need to be aware of the provinces and states that really regulate pick tools to keep yourself in good legal shape.

The questions you asked, although can be generally answered here, are best asked of a lawyer knowledgeable in your provincial laws.

[noorudeenshakur]

Varjeal, Thank you very much for answering that so well. I was hoping to save 500 bucks by posting here and not asking a lawyer. I can’t stand those guys, just to say hello to one cost 100 bucks.

I have thought about starting a local business in Ontario and stocking basically everything the popular site sponsors do. Wouldn’t that make a lot of people in these forums happy? Order from a Canadian Eh! Better Yet Come in and try it out before you buy. Who wouldn’t love a store like that in their city?

Unfortunately, I believe it would not go over well with local police though. In fact if even it was totally legal I'm sure they would find a way to revoke the business license, and possible arrest the owner. This is the sad truth because I believe it would attract hundreds of new members to this hobby. It would also be a great place to network for people interested in joining a local lock picking group.

It’s just a thought. It's funny how passionate I have become since discovering this hobby. I have wished for a store like this as I know many other Canadians have. There should be one in ever city in Canada as far as I’m concerned.

The bottom line is criminals don’t waste time picking locks, they find other ways in. In terms of opening a lock for a criminal brute force is always the way they go. Everyone who picks locks knows that brute force opens locks far easier and faster than lock picking ever will. By educating the general public about security and removing some of the mystery about lock picking I believe we would be able to put a lot more people’s unreasonable fears to rest. Lock picking is just an unknown thing that scares people. Ignorance only breeds fear, and unfortunately lock picking is shrouded in mystery and myth for most people and it scares them.

Have crime rates gotten any lower by not having a store like this? No I believe they are growing steadily each year, as criminals don’t pick locks, I mean they probably do but as a hobby only. It’s not practical to pick a lock when you can remove it in 30 seconds. People need to know that. I'm going off on a tangent now and I apologize.

Sometimes it’s just an obsession with this hobby to remove the stigma surrounding it. Heck we have formed a small lock picking club at the University Of Toronto, not a school affiliated club, but a few friends who are engineering students have taken it up. We make our own picks and currently are working on designing an electric pick that vibrates top and bottom tumblers at the same time. It’s pretty fun. I'm happy to see this forum is really starting to take off, and it’s great to see so many Canadians taking this hobby up.

Canadians a unique bunch of people. We love hacking, cracking, picking, Watching Free American TV, and Beer, Speaking of which, Dish network is calling.......gotta enjoy the Free PPV and cold ones while they last.

Cheers All!

[Chrispy]

I might point out that the reason most criminals either break a window, door, whatever, is because they can't pick locks. If a crim knew how to get into where he wanted to get into, without leaving trace evidence, don't you think he would use that method rather than smashing some glass, etc.? You can't tell me lockpicking has never been used for criminal activity. Sorry to rain on the parade.....

[noorudeenshakur]

I might point out that the reason most criminals either break a window, door, whatever, is because they can't pick locks. If a crim knew how to get into where he wanted to get into, without leaving trace evidence, don't you think he would use that method rather than smashing some glass, etc.? You can't tell me lockpicking has never been used for criminal activity. Sorry to rain on the parade.....

I agree with you with regards to criminals do use it, but the fact of the matter is it’s a very rare occurrence. Simply when time is of the essence, as when committing a crime its best to be fast. Who cares about leaving evidence of a breached lock, or broken window when in the end you have what you wanted? Think about it, would you rather be quick or slow if your freedom was on the line?

I know this may be hard for people to do but just try put imagine yourself in the position of a thief outside an electronics store, people walk by every so often. Police do patrols on occasion. Everyone has a cell phone to call them if you are spotted etc. Picture that and think

1) Would you rather be in 30 seconds and away or

2) Outside waiting to get caught trying to pick a Medeco lock because you don’t want to leave evidence?

I think the fact there is something missing is evidence enough.

This is purely hypothetical for arguments sake of course; no one is trying to put you or anyone else in the category of a criminal, as I don’t wish to be seen as condoning illegal activity with my support of lock picking. This is just to open a logical discussion of lock picking vs. brute force in the hands of a criminal.

In the end with the criminals Brute force will always be the method of choice because of its speed in which it bypasses security.

The debate is open to discussion.

I believe in the end in any scenario involving crime the result will always be the choice of Brute force as the way of the criminal simply because of speed and ease of use.

Criminals don’t like to work, hence they are criminals, so how to you expect one to work at picking a lock when he can bypass it or remove it in 30 seconds? While lock picking has been used by criminals I believe it is the exception to the rule and not the rule itself. If criminals knew how to pick locks they would still use brute force when committing crime, unless of coarse it was faster to pick the lock than bypass it with brute force. In that rare instance you be correct to assume criminals would resort to picking a lock.

My 2 cents, and its not because of my studies in criminology, it is simply logic when assuming the goal of a criminal is to be fast and to get away. It doesn’t appear this way in movies or video games, but in the real world that’s how it works. Don’t believe me.......heck go ask a criminal.

[NKT]

It's not as simple as that. You can't always tell what was stolen.

A handful of grain from a bag isn't going to be missed, one or two things from a stock room full of things isn't going to be missed unless audited fully, a copy of your customer records onto a CD or USB drive isn't going to be noticed...

[Varjeal]

...and this debate belongs in a different thread...hehehe...

[Stalker360]

How much money do you get for picking a lock for someone?

[vector40]

Varj -- when confronted with a lockout for an SFIC (BEST, whatever), how do you generally handle it?

[Varjeal]

Stalker360: Within city limits $40.

vector40: I pick it.

[vector40]

Do you use a special tension tool?

[Varjeal]

Nope. What for? I'm not trying to remove the core, just open the lock.

[vector40]

You don't find you have trouble setting on (at least some of) the wrong shearlines?

[Varjeal]

If it's masterkeyed (which they usually they are) so much the easier.

[Chrispy]

Are electric door openers available for deadbolts? And how well do they work?