How Do I Confirm Property Ownership?

[good_guy]

i was wondering how i confirm that someone owns the property. i got into lock pickin to help ppl out if i happen to be there when they are locked out. can any locksmiths here give some tips on how u do it?

[Mad Mick]

I'm not a lockie, but a current drivers license should show an address if you're attending a residential lockout. Also, a detailed description of what is inside the residence (when viewed through a certain window, by yourself) could give you a clue as to valid ownership.

Auto lockouts are a different consideration. Unless you can contact the Police to verify/discount ownership, or have sound evidence that the vehicle is in fact the property of the person wanting in, it's usually a judgement call.

HTH,
Mick.

[Romstar]

You want the god's honest truth?

No matter what these stupid news reports try to say, there is NO way. Read that again, NO WAY. None, Zip, Zero, NADA.

The simple fact of the matter is that the only way to confirm home ownership is to obtain a picture ID, confirm the person's identity, and then contact the county office registry of deeds.

You want to go through that before you open a house some cold day in Febuary?

Here are some tricks though that may make you feel more comfortable.

1. Ask the owner to describe the entryway to the home. Something unique that you can identify immediately.

2. If the person has proper ID on them, try to confirm that they live there. This can be done by checking the name on the mailbox, or having them provide a utilities bill after entry has been made.

3. Involve a neighbour by having them confirm the identity of the person, and their residence at that location.

4. In the case of rental properties, request that the customer have the landlord present. Although, in some cases, this means that they are going to get in WITHOUT your help, and you lose money.

5. In cases where you are unsure, make sure you try everything you can think of, and have the customer sign a waiver form.

I am sure that some dudley-do-right will be sure to , holler and complaint hat you didn't do enough, but thats their freaking problem.

If you are one of the poor unfortunate bastards the local TV station decides to try and set up for this sort of crap, get right into their faces and ask what they hell they THINK you should do.

Ever try to get ID from a guy in a bathrobe who's door locked on him when he went for the paper? It used to be that with home openings, the customer called from a neighbors home, and you could easily confirm that weay. In this day of cell phones, well that means that often the customer will be alone, and reluctant to involve anyone else to witness their lapse of judgement.

Good luck,
Romstar

[S3rratedSp00L]

If it's a residential lockout, you can ask what room the keys were left in or what keys the customer has on his/her keyring and what they go to. They should at the very least be able to identify the key to the front door without having to try it in the lock and you should be able to tell if it is the right kind of key just by sight. Then you try the key to make sure afterwards. If the customer refuses to let you try the key or tries to say that a car key opens the house, Chicago key opens a pin tumbler, etc.. Well, then you may have a problem.

Asking questions about the backyard and what type of door is at the back of the house seems like another good idea to me. Is it like the front door, or sliding glass, etc.. They should know this already, of course. The back door may be unlocked even if the customer doesn't think so.

You could also take a photo of the customer for your records and a photo of the ID just in case. as well as all the good methods mentioned previously. None of these methods are a gaurantee, but at least you got yourself covered hopefully... A free consultation from a lawyer about this matter might not be a bad idea! In the U.S. you can usually just go into a law office and ask a few questons for free, since you are a potential customer.

I would also recommend that you trust your gut! If something seems strange to you, then there may be something wrong. Common sense is all you got when it comes to something like this.

Those TV shows about home security are pure BS. They will not go into detail about real home security. They mention brute force and criminals trying to scam a locksmith into letting them inside, but honestly, who's gonna pay money to a locksmith to break into a home! Come on! Anyone who can think that up could surely find a brick for the window or a pipe wrench for the door knob, etc..

Television producers like to dumb things down and attack whomever is easiest to target without giving them a chance to fight back. They avoid accurate discussion of all aspects and it just keeps the population ignorant about their own security. Sadly, this kind of thing happens to websites as well.

That's an excellent idea to immediately ask "what would you do?" when/if confronted by a TV show! I would add not to say anything other than that! Don't give them a chance to twist it around much! Just keep repeating that same question. Be boring and they will not want to point a camera at you. (You could also repeat swear words over and over so they can't use the footage, except as an outtake for a blooper show or something that might make you famous! HAHAHA!)

I certainly hope to see what I would consider a *real* show about home security on TV some day. I just don't think it would be a hit.

Anyway, Good luck to all of you guys who regularly do lockout calls and such! It is a valuable service that I am sure everyone here can appreciate!

[good_guy]

thanks for the tips. i really appreciate it. yea i thought that lock pickin would be cool to get into and it would come in handy for myself and for others. i guess im giving back to the community becuz there my former neighbor was a locksmith and my dad got locked out once and got his car key broken in the hole and he gladly helped us out. i jus thought that everyone deserves a lucky break.

[randmguy]

Ask for a credit card and tell the customer that you will need to call and have it authorized for a $200 dollar charge. One of my personal favorites is to ask for a home phone number "for billing purposes". Dial the number on your cell phone when you get to the door. If you hear it ringing, you're most likely okay. I tried this once and the lady's teenage son answered. All I got was a trip charge for that one but it was worth it just to see her expression. Another overlooked method of CYA is to call the local police and ask them to meet you at the site. You would be surprised at how reluctant criminals are to have the cops present. Cops can also use your call for assistance as probable cause to run a license plate or driver's license and find out to whom a vehicle is registered. I know of one kid who went to jail because, while his name matched the registration, he was not 46 years old. You don't find a lot of 18 year old Jaguar owners in Minnesota. Registration and insurance cards are also good ways to verifiy ownership. I don't have many problems with rental property since it is usually the landlord or their maintenance staff that is calling me.

Consumer protection news crap is the worst sort of sensationalism. I was targeted twice for these "shocking business practices" stories. The first time I asked for a credit card over the phone and they used a "COMPANY CREDIT CARD". The next time the guy asking to be let into his car didn't seem right and I refused to open the car. They spilled the beans and asked me if I knew anyone they might try who didn't ask for verification. Talk about brass.

I wouldn't worry too much about news crews. If you hold to good business practices you aren't going to be in trouble. Remember that the same things that cover you legally also protect you physically in most situations.

[skold]

if car ask where the keys are and whats on the keyring, if house ask them what the first thing that you will see when you open the door.

[MrB]

Those TV shows about home security are pure BS. They will not go into detail about real home security.

That may be a sad indictment of the standard of television programs in the USA, but the same is not true in every country.

I watched a program about home security in the UK once that was somewhat painful to watch. They got some volunteers who had not thought much about security to watch on camera from a remote location while a reformed burglar cased the joint, explained all the security weaknesses he could exploit, then proceeded to break in and ransack the place. Ouch! This rather shocked the volunteer into a greater sense of awareness. Afterwards, they showed the volunteer victim how to remedy the obvious problems and prevent the "burglar" being able to repeat the performance a few weeks later.

Sadly, I find little evidence of home security awareness on my recent move from Britain to America. On the house that I purchased, several ground floor windows had missing window latches and so were permanently unlocked and open!

[b540glenn]

Do you know of any locksmith that has been duped (or attempted duping) into opening a home (or auto) for a non-authorized person? Has any locksmith been charged with B&E (or auto theft) for opening a residence (or car) during a service call? Why would a theif call on a locksmith when he/she could just break a back window?

I'm just wondering if all the paranoia is justified.

[Romstar]

The paranoia isn't about getting charged for B&E, I don't think that has ever occured. I could be wrong of course.

The real issue is these twits at local TV stations who try to make sensation out of nothing. This is part of the issue.

In any situation where you are opening a vehicle, or a business, or a home there are going to be questions.

Some locksmiths go completely on faith, others ask a lot of questions, and the majority fall somewhere in between.

One of our UK members made mention of how the BBC had done a spot concerning a vehicle that could easily be broken into and stolen. Apparently, as a direct result of this, theft of that vehicle shot up over 50% or more.

Put quite plainly, the issue is about getting put into a situation that is almost never likely to happen. As you pointed out, a thief isn't very likely to call a locksmith to open a car, or a house when there are easier less exposing way to get in.

It hasn't stopped TV reporters from doing their best to screw with the public's mind, and sensationalize something that just doesn't happen.

There is your paranoia. How would you like to open the door on a house and have camera jammed into your face with some punk ass reporter saying, "You didn't ask enough questions". Or have them pour out of a van in a parking lot saying the same crap.

Then, on the evening news, after they've edited it you either look like a bumbling idiot, or a willing accomplice to theft. Bear in mind that much of what you asked, or said won't be in the spot. Just some punk's voice-over.

This is the sort of advertising we don't need, and they just don't get it.

It's called scaring the audience, and they do it on a nightly basis. It makes ratings, and that sells ad time.

Romstar

[b540glenn]

...The real issue is these twits at local TV stations who try to make sensation out of nothing. This is part of the issue....

OK. I can see that. I guess the only defense against this would be to personally get to know everybody who works for the local and national news organizations.

[saderax]

if car ask where the keys are and whats on the keyring, if house ask them what the first thing that you will see when you open the door.

Varios users have suggested that you ask the "owner" to identify items on the key ring, where the keys are, the front room, the back door, and other objects... If the "owner" has misidentified the item in question then what does one do? Do you close the house door and pick the deadbolt closed? Perhaps call the police? Who is then become liable?

[Varjeal]

If you have concerns about the identity of the "owner", but still want to proceed, here's the general procedure.

1. Ask the "owner" to step away from the door while your working on it. Preferrably, FAR away.

2. Explain to the owner that you will access the home, confirm identity, and return. They are NOT to enter before you have completed this step.

3. If they are wrong, Lock the place up and tell the "owner" that they were wrong and that if they want the place opened a police officer will have to attend the scene for you to continue.

4. This step depends on the customer's reaction, but assuming they're willing to wait, go ahead and make the call.

As far as liability, you're pretty much safe as long as you don't take anything from the home and you've got everything in writing.

[Kodack]

There was a prank call I heard awhile back that had me in stitches.

The guy called a locksmith and said that he owned a department store and needed to get into it at midnight (his call was at 5PM). The locksmith was of course taken aback at the brazen request but he was polite about it. So the prankster then started asking about the safe in the store and whether the guy could crack it.

Really funny stuff. I think it was the Jerky boys or something.

[andrestl]

Hi-
I was pretty young at the time, but I seem to remember a braek-in to an office of a skrink, in the Watergate office complex, as a political dirty trick.
They did hire a locksmith for "national security resons"
The war on terror laws in the US gives them legal acess now I think?
A lesson from history.
Andre
P. S. The Folew Belsaw catalog has preprinted authorization forms for bussness locksmiths