Locksmith obligations and emergency openings.

[oniony]

Varjeal, as a locksmith, do you / are you obligated to ensure that those who call you out have a right to enter the properties you open or is it all done on trust?

I'm not implying anything, I'm just curious as I imagine it could potentially get very messy from a legal perspective if you weren't obligated to.

[Varjeal]

That's an excellent question, and it's why I moved your message to a new thread.

As a locksmith I am obligated to ensure, and read this carefully, to the best of my ability ensure that the client has legal right to access the property.

The "proper" way perform a property opening is to first have the client prove their identity with some type of legal documentation such as driver's license, S.S or S.I.N card, student i.d. etc. preferrably something with a picture on it that states they are the owner of said property.

Now, that said, here's reality. (an example) I get called out to Wal-Mart parking lot to open a van in the middle of winter. There, standing by the van is a mum holding a baby with three other kids hanging off of her. Apparently one of the cute little munchkins hit the lock button on the power doors just before he stepped out. Mum's keys, purse, and extra set are all in the vehicle. She has no I.D. Now...do I demand I.D. and not open the vehicle until she provides it? LEGALLY I shouldn't. How do I know she even owns said vehicle?

This is where the level of trust comes in. While I'm getting my tools out, though, I'll often ask a couple of probing questions like, "Mind if I ask who you're insured under?" or "Can you tell me what you have in the glove box?". I open the vehicle as quickly as possible, gain possession of the keys, and if I have any concerns as to her identity, I'll ask her name, then ask to see the driver's license when the vehicle is opened. She gets the keys when I get my money.
All this, of course, is done as quickly and nicely as possible, an important part of customer service.

[Varjeal]

Now, take that exact same scenario, and replace the mom and three kids with a '20's white male dressed shabbily and unshaved. He hasn't been drinking, and is leaning against the van on the side facing away from the store-front.

Again, his keys, etc. are locked in the van with his wallet. What do you think I should do?

[The Key Maker]

Do the same agin, surely you shouldnt discriminate between people if you are breaking the law for one then you should do it for the other! Personally i would do it for either. Maybe ask if they have a contact at home, call the police and ask them to be present so they to can confirm that everything is all ok. Plus if he was robbin the car the word police would send him off and he would make an excuse to go and get id!!! And bugger off!!!

Tricky one, the man you would have to be certain it was his car. Infact i would find it stranger that woman with three kids has a van. I would expect a shaggy man to have a van more than a woman!!!

DIFFICULT

[Mr. Picks]

When I was 16 I locked my keys in the van, I called Pop-A-Lock to open the van for me, when I got there he asked who the van was registered to and my relationship to the person (father), I told him and when he got the door open he asked me to step away and looked in the registration docs in the glovebox. I felt like he was taking cautious steps to ensure the vehicle was mine to drive.

[Pheniox]

here on base I have had to open a few doors in the BEQ and a few cars, all I do is simply tell them to stay back until I see the documentation on the cars. However, not really much I can do if they don't, most seriously outrank me. so

but I have yeat to have a problem with people saying something isn't theirs, mainly b/c thieves are to impatient most of the time to wait on you to pick it, they will use the brick pick.

[Varjeal]

You are all exactly right. My point was though, that it is a bit of a judgement call on occasion. We do our best, or should, to identify as best as we can, and if I'm unsure, I can always walk away.

And yes, I've had to do that before when someone is obviously drunk and wants to drive home.

You take the good with the bad in any line of work. Thank God it's mostly good.

[oniony]

Hmm, the drunk peep is something I haven't thought of. I guess it is his responsibility to ensure he doesn't drive his car but morally it must be difficult to give a guy his keys if you're pretty sure he will.

Cheers for the responses, btw.

[Varjeal]

Nope..legally its my responsibility NOT to open the car. If I do so knowing that the person is intoxicated, and they drive off and end up killing someone or themselves, I am legally liable for aiding and abetting.

On one hand we are required to not keep people from gaining access to their property, on the other hand if they do so criminally, we are liable, so keep that in mind the next time you think about opening a lock for someone.

[oniony]

Nope..legally its my responsibility NOT to open the car. If I do so knowing that the person is intoxicated, and they drive off and end up killing someone or themselves, I am legally liable for aiding and abetting.

Jeepers, that must make you think. Had many of these situations?

[Varjeal]

One is too many, but yeah, I've had a few potentially bad situations. I'm actually editing my own message just cause I remember one incident in particular.

It wast late Friday/early Saturday, probably 2 or 3 a.m. This guy phones on his cell and says he locked his keys in his car. I politely asked if he had been drinking and he said, "no". He sounded pretty sober, so I piled into my vehicle and drove out to the local campground to help him out.

I get there, and there's a party going on. As soon as the guy who phoned approached me I knew he was in no shape to drive. The smell of liquor and well, "other" odors were almost overwhelming...Just to humor him I walked over to his jacked up 4x4 which was conveniently parked under a light pole. The guy was staggering and weaving like it was nighttime in a field full of rocks. I then informed him as he tripped and nearly put his head through the side window that I legally couldn't open the vehicle since he was obviously drunk.

Of course, he was one of those "fighting" type drunks and immediately wanted to brawl. I was in a bad mood and suggested he NOT do that. He disagreed and swung, staggering at the same time. I slapped him hard on the back of the head and he hit the ground in a heap.

I left before his friends got there.

[okiewind]

Hypothetical situation, sorry but...Humor me please...

I am in the military, and as such can wind up almost any place. My license is from State A, but now live in State Q. My wife locks me out of the house, what then? Do we have to get a third party or do I just have that face that means you can trust me?

[Varjeal]

Chances are if the locksmith finds out there is a domestic dispute, he'll either not come out at all or pack up and leave, to be honest. Assuming she accidentally locked you out and you talked nice (or you deceived him) most of the time they'll open the door for you without a lot of hassle.

Technically speaking, he should ask for your i.D. ask about your relationship to the person who rightfully owns the place, do what he can to confirm that YOU have legal access to the place, have you sign a waiver, THEN open door.

[plot]

About waivers varjeal, couldn't you just get everyone to sign a waiver covering your ass from... basically everything?

[Varjeal]

You could, but there is also something that the law looks at called "due dilligence," which overrides even a signed wavier. This means that if the judge doesn't think you did enough to try to identify the client before opening something, it doesn't matter how many or what kind of waiver(s) you had them sign, you're in trouble.