Job Interview

by **thertel** » 8 Sep 2004 11:24

Seriously though, someone mentioned earlier that you could talk to your institutional locksmith about a position. Now granted these seem to be the most paranoid of all locksmiths from my experience, but this is actually cus of bad key practices at my college. Stuff like people have on their key ring High level master keys for dorms and stuff. I spent a bit of time doing some unpaid work for the lock shop at my college where I did learn about code cutting and combinating Sargent locks for and multi-tiered master key system. Overall I didn't get any picking experience out of it cus the guys were drill jockies on the rare occasion they didnt have either a spare key for the lock filed away or a master that would open it. I did also learn about key control at its worst, and not because of the smiths but because of the system the instituion put in place for assigning keys. Literally there is no system in place to get back keys until a person graduates, i.e. I got issued keys my feshman year and no longer have any need for those keys cus I no longer am an engineer and I've still got the keys until I graduate, and one of these is a sectional master.

But what I'm saying is that you can learn a lot about master keying and combinating cores. Proabably very little about decombinating, unless you figure it out while combinating, which I couldn't.

Best of Luck,

Thomas

by **Eyes_Only** » 8 Sep 2004 18:19

Yeah I agree, I dont want to be some lil twit that does nothing but complain about how hard it is to get into the locksmith industry and I would love to change things from the inside out, Ive considered it many times before, but can you really go out on your own after only taking a basic course thats offered by correspondence courses or technicial colleges? My biggest fear that is holding me back is my lack of work experience as a professional locksmith. I mean theres got to be tons of stuff they dont teach you from the basic courses that you can only learn from working in an actual shop for a few years.

by **Exodus5000** » 8 Sep 2004 23:36

Eyes_only:
There's been many that have done exactly that before. Take a few courses and learn from there. I'm in that boat with you. I guess forcing you to take a course is a good check to make sure you're interested as a job and not deviant purposes.

I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together.

by **randmguy** » 8 Sep 2004 23:50

Hey, I take exception to that crack about institutional smiths. Look at my profile.

thertel, chances are that you won't learn anything about decoding an SFIC because no one knows how to do it. It's only been recently that institutional locksmiths have had any formal training at all. I know a few people who are working as in house locksmiths because they were senior and the job paid better than cutting grass. I actually know inhouse locksmiths that don't even know how to combinate an SFIC...They send their key requirements directly to the factory and have them do it for them. It would be a different story if managment/administration were willing to pony up the dough for some ongoing training but they don't seem to care until someone gets robbed or raped. Then they blame everything they can on a poorly trained locksmith and tell everyone that it was this schmoe's laziness that caused their problem. Then they dither around trying to find a locksmith with training and experience who'll work for a pittance and end up hiring someone who is (again) unqualified for the position. I am thankful that organizations are starting to appear that represent institutional locksmiths. I hope they'll be more successful than some of the general smithing organizations in drawing members and keeping them interested and active.

Eyes_Only you can start working as a locksmith with the education you receive from a correspondence course. The greatest part of a locksmiths day is doing the things they teach you in the F-B course. Contrary to the popular concept there is no yearly ceremony around the fire where the master smith bestows Buddha-like lock wisdom to the apprentice. To make it in the trade you have to commit to learning more while you're working. Subscribe to and READ the trade publications. Ask for and look at manufacturers literature. Go to a local association meeting and introduce yourself. I believe the association here, in Minnesota, lets anyone come to 3 meetings before they require you to sign up. Something like that gives you 6-9 hours to show people in the trade that you are serious and that you're not a wanna-be. Just stop into a lockshop and jaw with the techs for a while. Ask them specific questions like, "Have any of you had to open one of the Toyotas with that new latch yet? What tool/method do you think is best?" or "Do you know where I might find parts for Equipment X?" You'll find that you will get answers because most smiths like to show off what they know...Just like everyone else.

The trade today is easier to get into than it was even 10 or fifteen years ago. It gets a little easier every year too. As the last of the old security through obscurity crowd shuffles off to retirement you'll find more people like Varjeal, Romstar, HeadHunterCEO, and Pinky in the trade. Let's not forget that the resources available to new smiths are far more abundant than they were either. Lockmaster's has a learning center and travels the country spreading knowledge everywhere they can fill the seats. Just Locks does opening schools you can take over a weekend. These things were not that common 15 years ago. And the internet has gone a long way toward making the "secrets" of locksmithing available to anyone. It's made it possible for new smiths to start out cheaper too. BlackHawk's Codes Online is $50 bucks a year. That's a lot easier to swallow than a $500 investment in a set of code books or $500-$800 for code software.

Think about this...Twenty years ago Varjeal, Romstar, HeadhunterCEO, pinky, and myself would likely have been ostracized by everyone in the trade for sharing knowledge like we do here. Now, even if it were likely that folks in the trade cared enough to do that we can help out protected by the anonimity of the internet. Most of the members of this board are free from worrying about the cops showing up at their doorstep because the Jones got ripped off and there was no sign of forced entry so it must be one of those weirdos that get together and practice lockpicking. So it is getting better. It will get better faster if poeple like you get into the trade and do your jobs well. If we could convince more people that they'd be better implementing a system of key control or installing locks that you can't pick with a butter knife, then all the arguments on security through obscurity would die a well deserved death. I may know exactly how to pick a Medeco M3 and I could tell everyone I know how as well. That doesn't mean they're is going to be picking one any time soon.

by **thertel** » 9 Sep 2004 0:05

It was not my intention to poke fun at all institutional locksmiths, but all the ones I've met and had time to talk to were for the most part paranoid about anyone who wanted to learn anything. And that I called them drill jockies was in reference to the ones I worked with. So if offense was given I'm sorry because offense was not intended.

Thomas

by **Eyes_Only** » 9 Sep 2004 0:29

I actually have taken a correspondence course from Assured Locksmith Training just a few months ago. I just kinda find it hard to believe that this is all there is to get started in the trade. Im sort of waiting for a huge reality check or something to bite me in the butt. A technical college around my city's area is in the process of developing a part classroom, half home study locksmith course soon i think so ill prolly take that course along with a couple more like the one at www.locksmithbiz.com so I can feel confident with myself to start.

by **randmguy** » 9 Sep 2004 1:13

All right...First ,thertel I don't feel you need to apologize for your experience. You didn't offend me and I forgot to put in the smilie after my first line. I curse the lack of an edit button that prevents me from inserting the smilies after I'm done ranting.

Eyes_Only the things you learned in your correspondence course are not all the things you'll need. Neither was my training in a lockshop all inclusive. If you're willing to continue learning then you'll do fine.

And when Murphy does sneak up and smack you with something unexpected, don't let on. This is one of the secrets to being and looking professional. Don't freak out when things go wrong. No matter how much training and experience you have you will continue to find things that you don't really know how to do. When it happens try to work through or around or past it. When you are absolutely stymied tell your customer that you don't feel you can do anything more to help them and recommend someone you think might be able to do the job. Above all else don't make it worse and don't get flustered.

The first time I encountered an Abloy Disc Lock was on a king pin lock on a semi trailer. I had no idea how to pick the thing and the owner of the rig was adamant that he didn't want me to drill the lock. I ended up grinding the hinge off the back side of the lock so he could hook up and didn't charge him for my time. Three weeks later he called and asked me if I could reassemble his Abloy cylinder. He'd dumped it trying to install it in a new lock body. I ran to my library and dug out the Abloy service info I'd requested from a distributor the morning after the grinder debacle. I put his lock back together and charged him for my time. He called me back because I was the third guy he'd had look at his lock and I was the only one that came up with a way to get him on the road again. I had no more idea than the two previous locksmiths how a Disc Lock worked but I just looked past what I didn't know and used what I did.

This ends Uncle Remus' lock babble for this evening.

by **Romstar** » 9 Sep 2004 1:24

Almost every single locksmith I have ever met learned the trade in only one of two ways.

1. The got into a lock shop, and learned the trade from a working locksmith.

2. They got frustrated, and just plunked down the cash for the F-B course, or another of the courses that are available out there.

The second option is the most common that I have seen.

Consider for a while what your bread and butter jobs are. The majority of them aren't that big.

So, look at your residential, and commercial jobs. Residential is going to be some pretty basic work, even if the customer wants keyed alike or something different.

Commercial work tends toward a little more than just locks. You are going to have to deal with aluminum stile doors, door closers, panic devices, electric strikes and some other stuff.

Then there is masterkey systems. Once you have done this a few times, it gets easier. I don't think that you can ever master it, but you certainly become proficient at it.

Then, you are going to get into SFIC locks, which can be simple or difficult depending on what the customer wants.

So, the basics are covered in most of the courses, and through other books, manufacture's literature, and just plain talking to other locksmiths you learn the little tricks that make you faster and more confident at the job.

Romstar

by **Eyes_Only** » 9 Sep 2004 3:08

Sounds good. This has been an eye opener and pretty encouraging for me, thanks everyone. Now I dont have to be at the mercy of a few paranoid lockies who will give me the run-around just to get rid of me.

by **Romstar** » 9 Sep 2004 4:00

I find it almost humourous that a very similar topic was broached in the alt.locksmithing newsgroup.

Some poor intrepid soul posed the question:

What do you think of Foley Belsaw's mail order course for a beginner?

The following are the responses as posted at the time of this writing.

its a VERY beginner course...
for the person that know NOTHING..
(PS, MY OPINION.. you MUST have a VERY good mechanical ability,
to get good in this business)

My opinion's in the FAQ, I believe.

Very beginner oriented........IMHO, it will give you enough of a start to be
able to ask the questions you will want to ask of a seasoned locksmith,
correctly. The course will give you a good basis of
locksmithing........please do not buy into the idea of finishing the course
and becoming a self-employed locksmith without further (read massive)
training!
Just My Thoughts

The following is a reply from our intrepid questioner:

Thank you all for your replies. I read the significant part of the FAQ, and
understand that F-B would only be touching on the "tip of the iceberg". I
am looking elsewhere to get started in this long-awaited hobby .... who
knows, possibly a career.

And again, more replies:

My Dad and I took the Locksmith Institute course many years ago. Foley is
some what similar. It will expose you to 5 to 10% of what you need to know
to get started, but it will get things started.

As a Foley graduate, you will be a "certified locksmith". But in the 10 plus
years I've been asking people, not one "certified locksmith" has been able
to tell me what those words mean.

Certified: Someone handed you a certificate. What the certificate is
worth depends on who handed it to you and what it claims they certify
that you have done or can do. ("Authorized" is a similar word. I've
been Authorized; I got a published author to sign her name on my arm
many years ago.)

The best thing about the Foley-Belsaw Institute course may be that you
can truthfully (though misleadingly) claim to have been certified by
"the FBI". And that statement ought to give you pause.

F/B is not a bad introduction-to-the-basics-of-the-basics. It's
overpriced, it's dated, it requires that you make an effort to practice
and experiment beyond what the course actually calls for, it's got some
stuff I flat-out disagree with, but I managed to get my money's worth
out of it. Then again, I didn't expect it to make me a locksmith; I
just wanted it to make me a better-informed beginner and give me some
idea of what I needed to invest time and money in learning more about.

I took that Locksmith Institute course back in the early
80's.
it defiantly was basic.

my2Â¢

I've intentionally left the names of the posters out of this message. Not because they do not deserve credit for their words but because by and large, I believe the most constructive reply was the very first one.

What I see here isn't just an opinion of a locksmithing course, but predominantely a group of people discouraging a prospective entrant into the trade. One of the respondants choose to regard the course as nothing more than a Q&A primer for your eventual training with a "seasoned" locksmith.

As I stated before, the vast majority of locksmiths that I have met and talked to all have one of these courses as their primary introduction and education in locksmithing.

I will go so far as to state that none of these courses is complete, none of these courses is the end all, be all of locksmithing. To put it bluntly, if you aren't any good at mechanical things, or problem solving, or just plain observation this isn't going to be a trade that you will excell in. Locksmithing requires a certain amount of inate creativity, and a complete willingness to continue learning every single day.

Does this mean that these courses are NOT the way to get into the trade? No, I don't agree with that idea at all. Mostly because I have seen people pick up the trade without any previous training other than their own curiousity, and their desire to be in the trade.

With all of this said, the basic question still remains. Will you learn everything you need to know from one of these courses to enter the trade? In my opinion the answer is yes, and no. :shock:

Shocked? You shouldn't be. These courses are more than adequate to get you in. How you conduct yourself, and develop your skills is then up to you. A good locksmith will continue to expand his horizons and his skills so that he can continue to tackle bigger and bigger jobs.

Get trained, get in, get work, get better. Practice, practice, practice..... There is no substitute for actually being in the field.

Romstar

by **randmguy** » 9 Sep 2004 5:14

Talk about your odd parallels...I was looking at The National Locksmith boards earlier and they had a duscussion going on the merits of various code machines. Of the 11 posters in this thread 5 have or had used the F-B 200 machine. One of the posters said he had 2 of the machines in his shop gathering dust. What interested me was that if we assume the people using or having used an F-B 200 are graduates of the locksmithing course then 5 (possibly 6) of them are working locksmiths who received some of their training from F-B. I can't say this is a fair sampling but its some fairly strong circumstantial evidence that the correspondence courses are a very good way to enter the trade.

The majority is constantly chanting basic, basic, basic about these courses. If you can't master the basics you aren't going to be much use as a locksmith. So aren't these courses just what you need to teach you into which areas you should try to expand your knowledge?

by **Varjeal** » 9 Sep 2004 10:44

I find it amusing that a lot of those "ol' lockies" who talk about the F-B course are same ones who'll walk away from their computer to cut a couple hundred keys on the FB200 key machine...hehehe...We all have to start somewhere and starting with a "little" education is a lot better than starting out with none.

People say that experience is the best teacher, but what they don't tell you is that experience is a pretty harsh taskmaster at times. Can you start a business with "just" an F-B course under your belt? Sure. Why not? People have started locksmith business's with nothing but a few tools and some manuals.

However, a business will not succeed with just a F-B course, or any other one for that matter.

As others have said already, if you're mechanically inclined and can apply what you read in manuals and breakdown charts to what you have in your hands, I say "go for it". Just don't forget to take time and money to increase your knowledge base whenever you can.

Best of luck.

by **toomush2drink** » 9 Sep 2004 11:49

As somebody who has entered the trade from a course (as it seems to be the only way over here in the uk) i agree that a coursewill only teach you basics but if you practise those basics they can get you into other things. I have recently gained work (sub contracting) from a bigger company on the back of my basics. I was completely honest about my limited abilities but they decided they can use me and also know which jobs NOT to give me. also they are talking about getting me out with one of their lockies for some experience so they can use me for other things. Ok the pay isnt great but its a chance to get a foot in the door which i have grabbed with both hands.
No doubt they will use and abuse me but thats to be expected with my lack of serious experience but i get lot more back in terms of work and on going experience.

I really believe that if you believe in your own abilities and have a genuine desire to succeed you will.Buy as many tools as you can to cover as many jobs as possible and really attack the uphill struggle it will be. Be under no illusions its easy, it isnt, but it doesnt mean its not achieveable just look around you at others that have done exactly the same and succeeded, learn from others around you whom have failed,dont repeat their mistakes.

You really really have to want to succeed as setting up a business isnt a walk in the park but it does have its rewards

This forum picks me up when im feeling low about things as i know im amonst others who have "made it" and others in the same place as myself.

REMEMBER BELIEVE IN YOURSELF AND OTHERS WILL BELIEVE IN YOU TOO.

by **locksmistress** » 9 Sep 2004 13:36

This is back to a way earlier part of the converstaion - but I've got to put in a plug for the Ma and Pa shops and crotchety old independent 'smiths.

It costs them a lot of money to hire someone. It's not just about $6.00 an hour - there's workman's comp insurance and tax changes and a ton of paperwork that they don't have time to do... They flat out can't afford to hire someone who might not stay more than a couple weeks. If you just show up one day and apply for a job, you could be the lock god with golden references flying out you're ears and they couldn't afford to take a chance on you.

In my personal experience gaining the trust of independent shops, I just hung out - out of the way - then waited for a lull when I might jump in with a really good question. I learned a lot from watching and listening on the outside of the counter and eventually got in on the inside of the counter. Persistence and patience are very valuable - in more ways than one - and sometimes it doesn't hurt to bring donuts.

by **Romstar** » 9 Sep 2004 13:54

Mmmmmm - donuts.

LOL

The funny thing is that there are more than a few locksmiths who are ex-cops.

I have to agree about the extra paperwork. The worker's comp, the added insurance, and a host of other costs that just plain don't come up all the time.

Currently, my expenses are:

1. Annual renewal of my business license
2. Liability, bonding and vehicle insurance
3. Worker's Comp. Insurance
4. Professional association fees.
5. Overhead costs, IE: stock, telephone, premesis fees, vehicle maintenance and operation costs.
6. New tool and replacement tool expenses.
7. Advertising expenses
8. Literature and educational expenses (This is on-going)

Then, every three months I have to remit provincial taxes. At years end I have to do my personal taxes, and remit the associated pension, income tax, and other fees.

Additionally, in the future I will be engaging the services of an accountant, so that will be a continuing expense. If I find the need to employ a dispatch/secretarial worker, that will cost as well.

This is a business, make no mistake about it. There is a lot of fun involved, but at the same time there is a great deal of drudgery involved that you have to deal with.

No job is complete until the paperwork is done. It's not just a catchy phrase seen in bathrooms, it's the truth.

Romstar

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