LAB IC pin differences

[demux]

I was perusing some options on the LAB website today, and happened to come across the following product sheet for their IC pins:

https://www.labpins.com/wp-content/uplo ... -Rev-E.pdf

I was curious if anyone knows a good technical reason why the "BEST" pins are only for use with BEST brand cores and the "Original" pins supposedly cannot be used with them. I.e. are BEST brand cores really constructed in some fundamentally different way at the operating shear line than say Falcon, Arrow, KSP, etc? Or is it more about the metallurgical composition of BEST brand keys vs 3rd party? What happens if I put the "BEST" labeled pins in an Arrow core, or the "Original" pins in a BEST core? Are we talking end-of-the-universe, ripped-the-tag-off-the-mattress level of havoc, or just uneven wear? Does it make any difference, in the above scenario, if I use BEST keys with the Arrow core or Ilco keys with the BEST core?

[RedE]

Well I called LAB and asked them your same question about three years ago and I didn't get a clear answer. I had some Falcon cores, but only the Best style of pins, so I wanted find out more about their compatibility. Anyway, their technical support guy just said that it was due to the differences in core construction, but he couldn't explain what about it caused them to recommend different pins for BEST vs the others. In the end, I stuffed the Falcon cores with the Best pins and they worked out perfectly. Anyway, have you tried calling LAB yourself?

Concerning the key brands, I've found that it doesn't really matter too much what you use, but that's not to say there aren't differences in quality amongst manufacturers. Elaborating based on my experience, BEST takes the cake in quality, but certainly not when it comes to price. Ilco seems to be what a lot a smiths use, and I guess they work fine for them. As a matter of fact, Ilco was my goto until I switched to Jet for IC work about two years ago when Ilco changed their IC blanks, which started feeling and looking cheaper to me. Also, I've also used the JMA pros and they worked OK. And Falcon is another brand that has worked well for me, I just don't see them hardly ever. Never recall using Arrow, but I suspect they're great too.

[demux]

RedE, thanks for the info. I had not tried calling LAB yet, though based on your experience it sounds like I might not get the info from them either. My next step was exactly what you did next, try pinning up a few cores of various brands with the Best style pins and see what happened. Glad someone else has tried that and been successful. I know Best name-brand cores are generally made to some of the tightest tolerances, and suspect that may have something to do with it - e.g. the "Best style" pins appear to have less rounding off at the bottom, less a chamfer on top, etc. I could certainly imagine that with the tolerances of Best cores they might demand a more precise pin. I have put some of LAB's universal pins in Best brand cores and no matter how new the core, how precisely I cut the key, they seem to have a higher incidence of being either clicky or sticky than the same pins in Arrow/Falcon/KSP/etc cores, which would seem to confirm that theory. Working forward from that assumption, I can certainly see why the LAB "original" style pins might not work well in a Best core, but I would think the "Best" style pins would be OK in other brands. Again, it seems like you have confirmed this.

I'll also note that it does seem to be a lot harder to find the LAB "original" style pins. A few sites do appear to be selling the full kits of them, but not the refill packs that seem to be more generally available in the Best and universal styles. I really don't want to have to buy a whole new kit if I'm only low on 6 or 8 sizes. Maybe some of the larger distributors like Flake and such have them, but I'm not an ALOA member and generally can't get signed up for those sites.

Regarding keys, I would think anything that's a good quality nickel silver blank and milled reasonably close to spec should be OK. I don't have any Best brand ones, mainly because as you say I think they're overpriced. I've personally used Ilco, Jet, JMA and maybe a few others. I've liked the former two, but have not been impressed by JMA, and a few other people on this site seem to share that feeling. Then again, I don't think the ones I had were their pro line, so maybe that is a bit better.

[RedE]

Demux,


I'm a little intrigued about how your keys are clicky when used in a BEST core with the universal pins... I would think that the more forgiving edges of the universal design would be less likely to hang up versus the BEST style pins with the smaller and sharper edges. Just thinking aloud here, but might your keys might be working better in the off brand cores because their tolerances are a little looser? And have you tried these same keys in a BEST core, but using BEST pins instead?

About the availability of "original" style pins, I'm not sure where to find those either, be it a distributor or not. If LAB's offerings seem to be unobtanium, perhaps you'd have good luck finding a cheap Falcon kit on eBay, or even bags of Falcon pins new from some online store...

Also, for your comments about blanks, I won't dispute that JMA is definitely a hit or miss. For IC, their Pro line (nickel silver) works alright IMO. Only thing I don't care for on the IC Pros is their cheesy "duplication prohibited" stamping on the back. Don't get me wrong though, some of their Pro offerings I don't care for, like Sargent for example, because they're milled much thinner than an OEM or Jet blank would be. And of course over some time, this spells disaster if the keys are used in high torque situations like operating exit devices. And I haven't even tried their non-pro, brass variants in interchangable core, because the other brass stuff is too flimsy, irrespective of blank thickness.


The above is ultimately just my opinion, but hopefully its insightful in one way or another.

[jeffmoss26]

we typically stock KSP cores and Jet NS blanks. We use Specialty Products and LAB colored pins. I've also done some big jobs with Original Best cores and blanks with the same pins. No issues whatsoever.

[cledry]

I have had more issues with original Best blanks than I have had with Ilco NS ones. Bought a box of extra long Best DD originals and about 20% are milled wrong!

[RedE]

I have had more issues with original Best blanks than I have had with Ilco NS ones. Bought a box of extra long Best DD originals and about 20% are milled wrong!

Wow, that's interesting. I've never had any issues with BEST yet, though I only use them on request or when supplied, so probably not a much as you. I've only seen Schlages OEMs with bad millings to be honest.

Also, have you seen a decline in Ilco IC blank quality starting about three years ago Cledry? The stampings got reversed and the metal just felt kinda funny on three different boxes I bought around that time, so I haven't tried them since. Switched to Jet after that for the most part, and haven't really looked back since.

[Agent VX]

I've had a problem with Best. How long it takes to get product from them. Otherwise they are better quality than the other options.

Usually we supply GMS brand housings and cores to maintain existing Best keyway systems. They aren't fantastic, but they're dirt cheap and get the job done. Fit and finish is a bit rough but they are better toleranced than the no name manufacturer SFIC cores we end up pulling out of glass doors (mortise housing and all) when a customer asks "can we get keys made for these? We don't have any." The GMS blanks, on the other hand, are absolutely terrible. Way out of spec and require a huge correction factor (like +8) to cut working keys.

When customers request SFIC systems that aren't required to be on an existing Best keyway, we supply Keymark (Recently rebranded to "Medeco X4" despite having nothing to do with a sidebar or rotating pins) because they are equivalent quality and price to Best but we can actually get them in a timely fashion and the customer gets the added benefit of actual key control. (Best "restricted" keyways are widely available from third party manufacturers but Keymark/X4 is not.)

Whenever possible though we try to steer customers away from SFIC and towards Schlage type large format IC systems. Far easier to deal with and you aren't stuck with short height Best/Keymark type keyways designed to fit in SFIC cores. (Keymark/X4 are available in this form factor though.)

[cledry]

I have had more issues with original Best blanks than I have had with Ilco NS ones. Bought a box of extra long Best DD originals and about 20% are milled wrong!

Wow, that's interesting. I've never had any issues with BEST yet, though I only use them on request or when supplied, so probably not a much as you. I've only seen Schlages OEMs with bad millings to be honest.

Also, have you seen a decline in Ilco IC blank quality starting about three years ago Cledry? The stampings got reversed and the metal just felt kinda funny on three different boxes I bought around that time, so I haven't tried them since. Switched to Jet after that for the most part, and haven't really looked back since.

Not really noticed more than the occasional mis-coined blank from Ilco to be honest. Other than one semi-restricted keyway we buy that doesn't have the millings extend back toward the bow far enough. Out of every batch of 5000 we get there are enough that are off that we key up a cylinder and test every cut key that leaves the shop.

[demux]

Demux,


I'm a little intrigued about how your keys are clicky when used in a BEST core with the universal pins... I would think that the more forgiving edges of the universal design would be less likely to hang up versus the BEST style pins with the smaller and sharper edges. Just thinking aloud here, but might your keys might be working better in the off brand cores because their tolerances are a little looser? And have you tried these same keys in a BEST core, but using BEST pins instead?

My guess is the key blank may be slightly mis-milled and it's actually catching on the chamfer on the universal pins and popping them up to the shear line due to the key not registering correctly, even though the root depths on all the cuts are within spec. It doesn't happen always, it just seems to happen more with the BEST brand cores, probably because of the tighter tolerances. My guess is if I pinned the same core up with the LAB "Best" style pins and used the same key it wouldn't work at all.

[demux]

(Best "restricted" keyways are widely available from third party manufacturers but Keymark/X4 is not.)

Interesting, are you talking about the T series/PKS (W series) blanks or stuff that's actually supposed to be restricted (Cormax/Peaks)?

[RedE]

Cledry, I will have to try the some more Ilcos next time, based on your good luck with them. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Agent VX... I find it interesting that you've had problems with GMS blanks. I forgot about that brand in my previous posts, but now I recall that I have used them and had problems cutting GMS blanks because they wouldn't sit well in the machine's vise. And not that it matters much, but it seemed like the head on those blanks is noticeably larger too, when compared against other brands.

Demux, if you want to try and experiment with BEST style pins, PM me and I'll send you some to key up a core.

[demux]

Just to follow up on this, I actually was able to get in touch with someone at LAB on this a while ago, and apparently the only technical difference between the Original and Best styles is the profile on the bottom of the bottom pins (the lack of rounding over on the Best style that is present on the Original style), and the only implication of that difference is the amount of force required to insert and remove the key. There are no significant differences in wear on either the core or the key using either style of pins.

So, if you're OK with a non-Best brand core feeling a bit more stiff to use like a Best core, go ahead and use the Best style pins. Of course, some of that could probably also be mitigated by using a slightly weaker spring, if you so desire.