Requesting ID from your clients

[jonathanelopez]

I'm a locksmith here in Delaware... Just wondering WHY are locksmiths not a part of Federal Driver's Privacy Protection Act (DPPA). I know that sounds like an odd question. This would give "Registered/Licensed" locksmiths the ability to look up to whom a car belongs too. I understand that all drivers MUST provide ID before you would unlock a vehicle. But how do you REALLY KNOW if they are indeed listed on that registration form in that glove box.


Tell me why you guys think, I've searched all over online and haven't heard of one locksmith ranting on about why its not possible to have this information at our fingertips for our safety and customers safety as well.

[Altashot]

I inquired about that before to the police. I don't have access to that kind of information, I'm not a cop.
Typically Thieves don't call locksmiths...Besides, where I'm from, It is an offence to use a locksmith for malicious purposes and I am not required to ask for ID. If you use me to get access to where you are not supposed to go, YOU will be prosecuted NOT ME. I offer a service for which I get paid. Once the money is in my hand, I don't care where it came from.

M.

[IndigoChild]

Well put, however I have one exception to that rule. If you show up and the person is clearly under the influence I would ask for their ID and hand it to the police after they arrive to take them home. Most officers would be happy to assist in this kind of a situation. More often than not if its at a bar the officer will simply escort the person home.

[jonathanelopez]

You know IndigoChild. For whatever reason when i'm doing a lockout for a drunk person. I'm thinking of only one thing "when is this going to be over." And Altashot I haven't checked here in Delaware but I really hope it is an offense to use a locksmith for aiding in a B&E. BUT your right why would you call that attention to yourself - That makes me feel a bit' better. But some people are a bit' sketchy- My company goes as far as fingerprinting (right thumb).


And sorry for bringing this term up in this forum i'm quite new.

[IndigoChild]

Haha I think the same exact thing. But I care for my fellow humans and their safety. The cops dont mind cause they would rather keep them from driving on their own. But a lockout for a drunk into their house is quite funny usually. The frightening ones are when someone is evicted and you have to watch it all. I just stay in the van the whole time. Like Alta though I do the job, get paid, go home. Minimal questions.

[Altashot]

Don't apologize, It is an excellent topic.

When I have to deal with intoxicated people, I will NOT open a vehicle, I will offer to open their home instead. I give them my card and tell them I will give them a discount to open their car tomorrow. That is only when I actually go on the call. Most of the time I can tell on the phone if they're "under the influence" and tell them I will help them tomorrow.
If anything doesn't feel right, I walk away. I trust my "guts", I got to become a good judge over time. I certainly don't want to help someone that is "up to no good" but I also know that I have been had before when I got a call from an upset parent or an estranged spouse threatening to call the cops on me... They soon found out that I was not responsible for others people's actions...I cannot be held responsible.

As for taking a finger print, I wouldn't give one if I was asked and I wouldn't ask for one either.
Is that even legal?

M.

[MBI]

I'm a locksmith here in Delaware... Just wondering WHY are locksmiths not a part of Federal Driver's Privacy Protection Act (DPPA)...

This is just a guess, but perhaps it's because the locksmith industry doesn't have a national regulatory body overseeing the profession. Most states don't even have licensing requirements for the job. If I'm not mistaken even a convicted felon with multiple burglary convictions could set up shop and call himself a locksmith if he wanted to do so in most states. It would basically give almost anyone in the country who wanted access to that database, the ability to do so merely by setting themselves up as an independent mobile locksmith. As things stand now, that would pretty much negate any privacy protections offered under that act.

[Legion303]

As for taking a finger print, I wouldn't give one if I was asked and I wouldn't ask for one either.
Is that even legal?

Agreed. Anyone who demands my prints before they'll do business won't get my business.

-steve

[Capt_Tom]

In this state, a cop requesting drivers license and vehicle tag info must substantiate the reason with the request by having them in a report, on a ticket, or arrest record. To violate that law is a felony.

[jonathanelopez]

Wow I had no idea that there would be this many replies. Nice to see an active and helpful community.


and for Altashot:
"As for taking a finger print, I wouldn't give one if I was asked and I wouldn't ask for one either.
Is that even legal?"

Good point, although we haven't had one issue with anyone refusing and we deal with many clients each day. BUT it's not our intentions to ask every customer for their prints. Usually this is only done if they do not have an ID available (inside vehicle/house). I've looked everywhere for any legal issues and have not found any. Some customers flinch just a bit' when they hear that we require it to start a job. But i'd rather have something to show that this person was indeed there.

Call it odd that our company does it, but we do it to cover our end.


Next week were thinking about going with a digital fingerprint machine that they use for fingerprinting criminals. Hah. Just kidding.


MBI. You raise a very good point. I've always wondered why they haven't fixed the issue with allowing just any person to become a locksmith, hopefully this will be fixed in the near future. But that wouldn't be the only problem wrong with the law system, but we won't go there.


Capt_Tom. I'm confussed here how is it possible for a cop not to be able to request tag info. We all know that cops drive around and run tags all the time, and if they're not the computer is scanning for them looking for possible stolen vehicles, expired tags, etc. I probably just missunderstood something there.

[MBI]

Capt_Tom. I'm confussed here how is it possible for a cop not to be able to request tag info. We all know that cops drive around and run tags all the time, and if they're not the computer is scanning for them looking for possible stolen vehicles, expired tags, etc. I probably just missunderstood something there.

Any system which has humans in positions of authority, has a potential for abuse of that power. Basically, a cop can run license plates 'till the cows come home, IF he has a legitimate (i.e. work related) reason to do so. Most cops run far too many license plates through the computer for it to be practical to audit them all and verify that he had some kind of job-related reason for each and every one. However, records are checked sometimes. If a cop has accessed anyone's records which in some way raises a red flag, he'd better have a plausible explanation for it, because it is illegal for him to access that information outside of the scope of his employment.

Here's a hypothetical example: If a cop is the jealous type, and he breaks up with his girlfriend then a few days later he sees her in a car with some guy. It would be illegal for him to take that guy's license plate number and access the ownership records just for his own jealous curiosity to find out who the guy is. If for some reason it came to light that the cop ran her new boyfriend's info through the system, the cop could be prosecuted for having accessed that information improperly if he can't demonstrate some legitimate reason for having done so. It doesn't happen very often, but it has happened. Cops have lost their jobs over it.

Police officers have access to all kinds of personal information about people. They're expected to use restraint and not abuse that power by using it for personal reasons. In my experience, cops in the US tend to be fairly honest on average, but there are usually a couple of bad apples in every barrel. Humans are fallible and sometimes make mistakes and occasionally people get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

[Sinifar]

Requesting ID is a normal part of this job if you are in doubt as to the ownership of the car. I have a form which we carry in the trucks which is both a statement that they "own" the car, and a damage release at the same time. // IF you find evidence of somebody else trying to open the car, take photos of the damage, and any tools left stuck in the doors. Remember your cell phone is a camera. Document this and note it on the damage release form. You are protecting yourself here.

** Side bar - I have about a dozen coat hangers, slim jims, and MICOT tools left behind by erstwhile locksmith / car openers who thought they could just get it open for them!

The problem is the same on rekeying a house say. I get a call from "JOE" saying he wants his house rekeyed. So no problem. Then later on I get a call from a lawyer who represents "MARY", and now I find out that she has some legal right to the place and JOE does not. Worse she has a restraining order out on him to keep away, and now he has locked her out. How am I to find out any or some of this from the service call?

There is no way that any smith can "smell" or determine in advance which job is going to be a booby trap he is walking into. I agree with the intoxicated line and refuse to open a car "late" outside any bar or club - somebody could have taken the keys to keep the drunk from driving and now he wants to go home -- only his keys were impounded by a good Samaritan. So now what? The goof demands you make him a set of keys.

With today's transponder keys it will take some time to use either a Determinator or work out the basic "work" key - then program the transponder key. In the past one could waltz in, open the car, tear down the steering column and make a key in about 20 minutes. So the time spent working gives you a somewhat chance at somebody will come over and give you a tip on the situation, and you can stop work at that point.

So now you gave a drunk a set of keys -- WHO is responsible if the guy goes out and kills somebody driving drunk?

In the end, it comes down to the legal point of who really owns anything anymore. With the modern messes people find themselves in, sometimes the smith finds he got into in the middle of somebody else's problems.

I have been getting more and more leery of doing most of this for the public after a series of bad experiences in the past 10 years.

Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

Sinifar

[daniel22747]

When I have to deal with intoxicated people, I will NOT open a vehicle, I will offer to open their home instead....

If anything doesn't feel right, I walk away. I trust my "guts", I got to become a good judge over time.

This is probably a better idea than trying to confiscate someones driver license!

[ARF-GEF]

I too like this topic. Congratulations jonathanelopez!
It's great to discuss our views on the more sensitive topics than a kwickset. And no place better to discuss it than hear.
I'm very much looking forward to hearing other people's opinion and point of view, it will be interesting for sure!


What would you/do you do if the locked out drunk person only wants to get something out of the car? Like keys or mobile phone or a purse?

I will NOT open a vehicle, I will offer to open their home instead. I give them my card and tell them I will give them a discount to open their car tomorrow. That is only when I actually go on the call. Most of the time I can tell on the phone if they're "under the influence" and tell them I will help them tomorrow.

Altashot's practice seems very clever to deal with drunks.
And I agree when he said :

"As for taking a finger print, I wouldn't give one if I was asked and I wouldn't ask for one either.
Is that even legal?"

Even if it's legal it's so against my ethics. To give away fingerprints to an unknown guy? Or demand the same? Not even for a cop unless I'm legally obliged. (That is if I'm arrested.) There need to be oversight accountability and control by people who we trust (like the cops) over those stuff.

Finger prints? Come on guys... We are locksmiths not the guardians of peace and justice (that's the Jedi or the green lantern... I too wanted to become either or both ) (And disclaimer: I'm not a full locksmith yet I only study to become one once)

I agree that we have a significant responsibility, but we are no investigative body we shouldn't mess with police business. It's not our job and there are many good reasons for that.
You have to defend yourself but let's not erode the basic freedom to privacy for something so vague and general.

I think locksmiths shouldn't have the right to get the finger prints or as a matter of fact check someone's ID. The extra rights of police is also a huge responsibility and power always has to be accountable and have overview in a democracy. With similar reasoning many other professions should get extra rights. I mean the doctors should check for the ID if you have suspicious wounds instead of calling the cops? So should the cleaning lady if she find what looks like blood? Or maybe even the taxi driver if you seem to be a person with foreign accent and interested in checking out a military building?
That's the job of the police let's not erode the civil rights and freedoms where it's unnecessary.

It would basically give almost anyone ... the ability to do so
<and>
Any system which has humans in positions of authority, has a potential for abuse of that power.

Totally agree MBI!

I would never present any ID to a fellow layman (i.e. not a cop) no matter if he is a locksmith or a electrician or the cleaning lady.
Even if it's my car. I would be very much outraged even at the demand...
On what basis would he has the right to demand it and have access to such intimate private details. We lockies have no policing rights we are just like anyone else. With that logic I could demand for the ID of the locksmith, what if the lock he sold me has secretly an extra key made? Or what if the tells criminals what the "booty" is in my flat and informs them about the lock I have as to facilitate a break in?
See this is a dangerous policy which can easily backfire. Just because there is a possibility of illegal activity doesn't mean you can acquire the power of a policemen.


The point is it's not the lockies job to decide. It's not for us to get too involved. Our job is to get it open. If anything illegal happens it's for the cops. We shouldn't harass tons of innocent people just to catch a single criminal. That's a very important philosophy which differentiates between totalitarian justice systems like to soviet used to be, and democratic justice system like it is in the US and here in the EU.

Confiscating the driving license is even more brutal. If any "normal" person (a stranger who is not a cop; friends are of course different) tried that with me the first thing I would do would be to call the cops and file a police report. That is objectively theft.I think no layman should have the right to confiscate other people's property. Period. Whatever reasons a lockie has or you believes to have. (Just because you think something is that way or another doesn't mean it is. That's why we have courts...)

That is just my opinion of course
Maybe because I'm from Europe and I was accustomed to a different culture and thinking here.