Keyway Identification (Sargent KN?)

[prophet_of_loss]

I believe that this is a Sargent "KN" keyway (or "K")? Does that look correct? If so, are there any Ilco blanks (or blanks from any manufacturer) that would fit this, or is it restricted / under patent?




[ADMIN EDIT: oops, that's a link to the album page, this is what the [image] tags need to show an image: https://i.ibb.co/Nj7CHh5/20190322-115100.jpg

here ya go -Squelchtone]:

[cledry]

I believe that this is a Sargent "KN" keyway (or "K")? Does that look correct? If so, are there any Ilco blanks (or blanks from any manufacturer) that would fit this, or is it restricted / under patent?

That is their restricted signature series. You can make another Sargent key blanks fit.

[jeffmoss26]

K series is restricted in addition to the Signature being a patented system.

[Squelchtone]

hey OP, are you trying to make a duplicate key to your apartment for a girlfriend or something? How much is management asking for a 2nd key? like $100?

[prophet_of_loss]

It's not for a duplicate key. This is part of a large institutional master-keyed system, and I'm curious if I can extract the master key from a single passkey. There's no particular reason for any of it (I actually have legit badge access to most of the areas the master would go anyway), but it's frustrating to be stuck w/o blanks before ever having a chance to try.

[Squelchtone]

It's not for a duplicate key. This is part of a large institutional master-keyed system, and I'm curious if I can extract the master key from a single passkey. There's no particular reason for any of it (I actually have legit badge access to most of the areas the master would go anyway), but it's frustrating to be stuck w/o blanks before ever having a chance to try.

yeah, you wont like my answer.. sounds like you're in IT, like I am.... maybe red team maybe blue team, maybe performing pen test kind of stuff, maybe just bored and curious, but I'm just gonna say that as someone who also works at a place with lots of master keyed high security locks, as well as having a physical Grand Master Key and a full access 24/7 prox card, I *now (after messing up and having to fix a couple locks)* know enough not to touch my employer's lock cylinders, or do creative things like try to derive the master from a change key. This is probably beyond the scope of what they expect you do to with your access privileges and possibly against your Employee Handbook in one way or another, or at least against most folks moral compass, unless your boss specifically said, hey, maintenance and I are giving you permission to persue this in order to make our facility safer.

That's just my 2 cents, you can groan at me or write back something unkind, but you're not the first to ever visit here with the same sort of project in mind, and based on our experience, this may not be a good idea.

best of luck with your project, and at least you can tell yourself or your bosses that getting the Master bitting out of a single change key is difficult in your organization due to the difficulty of even obtaining a blank that fits in the lock.
Squelchtone

[Evan]

It's not for a duplicate key. This is part of a large institutional master-keyed system, and I'm curious if I can extract the master key from a single passkey. There's no particular reason for any of it (I actually have legit badge access to most of the areas the master would go anyway), but it's frustrating to be stuck w/o blanks before ever having a chance to try.

A. You are not going to find Sargent K-family keyway blanks anywhere legitimate as they are all factory restricted,

B. That little feather symbol on the plug of the cylinder means it is a Sargent Signature cylinder. This means that there are dimples on the side of the key in a pattern unique to that specific system which means those specific key blanks with the correct dimples are essentially the basic elemental form of unobtainium.

C. Enough of this Matt Blaze shit already. He seriously wrote a paper on something he completely didn't know was already referred to as the "Dayton Method" in the locksmith industry which has been around as a technique for a long time. Being the first person to write about something to an unrestricted audience does not make that person the inventor of the concept.

D. Your interest in wanting to reverse engineer the keying system is EXACTLY why your employer chose to use a factory restricted keyway combined with a UL-437 patented high security mechanism cylinders to prevent people such as yourself from being able to play with the physical security of the institution by easily obtaining key blanks.

~ Evan

[demux]

This is probably beyond the scope of what they expect you do to with your access privileges and possibly against your Employee Handbook in one way or another, or at least against most folks moral compass, unless your boss specifically said, hey, maintenance and I are giving you permission to persue this in order to make our facility safer.

Not to mention, also likely against the law (if you break something along the way, probably B&E, otherwise at least trespass if you go into areas of your employer's facilities you shouldn't be) depending on your jurisdiction, which would also make it a violation of this board's rules.

[Raccoon]

I'm of the mind that if he was specifically tasked by his employer as a security consultant, then fine and good. I pass no judgement. And I'm happy to share that he should attempt milling his own key blanks if he has the resources at his disposal, as that seems the next logical level of attack in this scenario. If the technology in 2019 enables him to do so effectively, then it may be that his corporation needs to upgrade or augment their physical security with more audit trail passcode security. So far nothing in this thread has touched on restricted topics of bypass and such, and I wish him well in succeeding in his task to the extent they are legitimized by his employer.

[demux]

I'm of the mind that if he was specifically tasked by his employer as a security consultant, then fine and good. I pass no judgement. And I'm happy to share that he should attempt milling his own key blanks if he has the resources at his disposal, as that seems the next logical level of attack in this scenario. If the technology in 2019 enables him to do so effectively, then it may be that his corporation needs to upgrade or augment their physical security with more audit trail passcode security. So far nothing in this thread has touched on restricted topics of bypass and such, and I wish him well in succeeding in his task to the extent they are legitimized by his employer.

A fair point. Though on the other hand, OP has yet to state that he does in fact have legitimate permission to be attempting what he's attempting, and it's always a bit suspicious when a new user on the forum makes a first post that has a close up pic of a cylinder in use asking about obtaining blanks with little/no background...

[Raccoon]

Eh, I'm not particularly inclined to withhold information from people on the basis they swear an oath to me or something. I'd rather tell people about the known strengths and weaknesses of a particular system so everyone can know, improve their security and move on. I don't need their sworn testimony, whatever that's worth, but would be happy to see them banned if they blatantly admit to being a criminal. People tend to reveal their hand if you just answer their questions plainly.