Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Got a cool old key? What keyway is this?! Need a key for that old steamer trunk or padlock? Do Not Duplicate got you down? What's that part number for that factory key section? Which supplier has this key blank in stock? Need the MACS, root depth, or Depth and Spacing for your lock? Need some pre cut keys? Keys and Key Blanks is the forum for you!

Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Postby Peter Martin » 16 Apr 2022 19:13

I realized that I know little about Corbin-Russwin blanks and key systems. They don't make the information easy to find.
But I did locate this primer to the System 70 and "Pre-System 70" locks, and keyways. [NOTE: I started down this rabbit hole when I looked at the ILCO keyblank catalog and their S22 was not O1007LA, rather it's listed as O1007CA, but all retailers sell the o1007LA as the S22.]

I am puzzled why Corbin would go to a system with fewer bitting depth (six) instead of the Russwin 10-depths. It appears to make masterkeying a simpler process.

But I came across this manual which helped a bit and thought I'd share:
https://absupply.net/pdf/CR_CylinderManual.pdf

Pete
Sioux Falls, SD
Peter Martin
 
Posts: 396
Joined: 1 Aug 2004 0:14
Location: SD

Re: Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Postby Peter Martin » 16 Apr 2022 19:19

Oops -- that was the SARGENT keyblanks (S22) I was originally searching for ... but somehow it got me to reading about Corbin-Russwin blanks and keyways. Sorry about that confusion.
But you get it...

Pete
Peter Martin
 
Posts: 396
Joined: 1 Aug 2004 0:14
Location: SD

Re: Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Postby Safecrackin Sammy » 17 Apr 2022 8:35

Keep in mind master key systems the size we know now were rare years ago.

The six depth system meant you only needed one depth change per change key versus the accepted two depth now.

Corbin Rushwin is so much fun......
Safecrackin Sammy
 
Posts: 306
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 12:05
Location: Virginia

Re: Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Postby jeffmoss26 » 17 Apr 2022 16:14

that manual is considered the bible of Corbin/Russwin!
"I tried smoking a blank once. I was never able to keep the tip lit long enough to inhale." - ltdbjd
jeffmoss26
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: 13 Jan 2012 15:01
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Postby mastersmith » 18 Apr 2022 22:26

Mr. Moss is correct. That manual is the best I have ever seen. A true gem for this profession.
mastersmith
 
Posts: 58
Joined: 13 May 2011 22:36
Location: Washington Twp., Ohio

Re: Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Postby RubberBanned » 20 Apr 2022 9:56

The CR cylinder manual is a standout of technical writing. It's a pleasure to read, as it has some historical bits, and lets you, even in modernity, understand old key systems, and that helps old cylinders that we all know and love stay alive. CR is my favourite among the lock brand, because of the shear diversity of key systems, and attractive hardware. Their key sections are also very nice, and their sectional master keying is fun to work with.
RubberBanned
 
Posts: 99
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 0:51
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Corbin-Russwin "System 70"

Postby Evan » 20 Apr 2022 18:41

Peter Martin wrote:I am puzzled why Corbin would go to a system with fewer bitting depth (six) instead of the Russwin 10-depths. It appears to make masterkeying a simpler process.


Pete:

Your puzzlement about Corbin-Russwin's development of System 70 just means that you are at the beginning of your journey learning about the art and science that is masterkeying. So let's discuss System 70 vs. Pre-System 70:

The key points to Pre-System 70 are: Odds/Evens and multiples of 4 and Bitting Parity

So imagine that Pre-System 70 Corbin-Russwin is like a Schlage master keying system. You have 10 depths but can only use half of them in any given pinning chamber of the lock: Odds and Evens, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 or 2, 4, 6, 8, 0. Corbin's deepest depth was 0 (10) and in Russwin 0 was the shallowest depth.

Out of those five options in each bitting chamber one is reserved for your top master key of your system and thus leaves you with four bittings available to progress your change keys from.

Ex: 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 = 4,096 theoretical bittings possible in the system with six pin locks.

Next to consider is the bitting parity, this is the sequence of odds and evens in the key bittings in your system.

Examples:

OEOEOE
OOEEOO
EEOOEE
OOOEEE
EEEOOO

Bitting parity is particularly a concern when using a popular keyway in a large area. Locksmiths can prevent key interchange from occurring in the keying systems they produce by making sure not to repeat the same bitting parity in keying systems using the same commercial keyway. This is important because you do not want any random key off the street being capable of opening a lock in your building.

The key points of System 70 are: Doing more with less and multiples of 5

System 70 is like a Kwikset master keying system. You have 6 depths available in each chamber of the lock. You reserve on for your top master key and have five left to progress your change keys. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Ex: 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 = 15,625 theoretical bittings possible in the system with six pin locks.

Unfortunately you do not have bitting parity available to use as a tool to increase the security of your keying system.

With System 70 you want to make sure you are using a keyway that is as unique as it can possibly be as the likelihood that a random System 70 key that fits into your locks being able to operate one or more of them is about the same as the possibility that someone with a random Kwikset key can open your home's Kwikset lock installed on the door.

We have covered the differences in two bitting Systems developed by Corbin-Russwin. Let's go beyond the beyond here and mention the different bitting classes. X class, Z class, DH class are the three most common. X class and Z class are the old Corbin keyways with X class being the oldest and Z class beginning with the 59 series keyways in 1959. DH class are the old Russwin keyways still in common use, the D family and H family. There are others but they are much less common in modern systems (N class, A class, 981 class).

Now where Corbin-Russwin likes to get really complicated is that the locks over time have been made with different plug diameters for different types of locks in the different keyway bitting classes. This requires using pins of different sizes to key the locks correctly and having a very expensive OEM universal pinning kit to be able to do that properly.

~~ Evan
Evan
 
Posts: 1489
Joined: 5 Apr 2010 17:09
Location: Rhode Island


Return to Keys, Keyways, and Key Blanks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests