Interview

[TOWCH]

Say a house is decked out it Abloy Protecs, and the doors and windows have no working bypasses. It does not seem practical to NDE this house. Is it ideal to have a house in such a state where the only way in, in the event of a lockout, is destructive. Come to think of it, this is a decision based on how much a person values security. That's why I decided not to put it in the original interview.

My entire paper is based on the assumption that non-destructive entry is a bad thing to have possible, and that question was about questioning that assumption weighing in the benifit to home and business owners in the event of a lockout.

[devildog]

Well, what I think you meant 'is it practical to use locks that are highly resistant to sophisticated forms of NDE bypass?'. It is actually not even POSSIBLE to make a lock that cannot be bypassed by NDE in some way shape or form (there's no such thing as an unpickable lock, yada yada yada); I'm sure you know this you just got your semantics messed up.

So I guess what you're asking is, assuming it's financially possible and the home/business owner wants to do it, is it a good idea to install high-security locks that would extremely difficult (impractical) to bypass non-destructively, i.e.

"Should Joe Schmoe put Abloy Protecs on his home, assuming he can afford it, and other appropriate equivalent security measures, such as security glass, security doors, lighting, and alarms, are also being implemented?"

Well, if a competent locksmith installs them AND that locksmith either has the tools and know-how to bypass them if he has to, OR he's got your key code at his shop (extremely well secured, we hope) OR the factory has them and he can either cut a new key himself or get them sent to him same-day/overnight from the factory...well, sure, why not?

Now, if Joe Schmoe does the same thing, except he either installs them himself (he's not an LP101'er, so no, he doesn't really know what he's doing ) or has a locksmith install them who's incompetent for that particular job, and Joe Schmoe lives in rural Alaska where there's two break-ins per year every 100 square miles or something, and he's extraordinarily absent-minded and tends to lose stuff a lot, like people's business cards, phone numbers, doo-dads and things like, umm...KEYS!!!!!----Well, then maybe that's not such a bright idea

In that case Joe might just be better off with some quality locks that will be very resistant to forced entry but can still be popped by an average lockie with a snap gun, like some Home Depot Schlage Grade 2 deadbolts or something like that (IOW, at least Grade 2 but it can still be popped with a snap gun or a little bit of skill and a half-diamond/tension wrench combo). And don't forget the MAG, or Don-Jo, kickplates and strike plates and maybe a decent alarm system wouldn't hurt either. Maybe even spring for a security laminate on some of the windows (like the ones right next to the doors ), if he pleases.

So, yeah, I think there's definately circumstances in which a setup that would take John Falle and a crack NDE team 4 hours to penetrate is not only overkill but could definately end up doing more harm than good, particularly if the fact that higher-security locks require a compentently executed professional installation by someone (locksmith/security pro) capable of such is overlooked.

Phew! I didn't see that rant coming!! Sorry, I'm bored . Oh, and you can use everything I just said for whatever you want, I don't care--quote away, I'm flattered if you do

[devildog]

TOWCH, I hadn't read your above post until after I posted mine, and we both say Protecs . That could include multlocks, medecos, evva 3ks, kaba gemini, etc., I just happened to think of Abloy Protecs.

[hzatorsk]

Thanks for all the replies. Now I won't fail my senior year!

One more question:

Do you believe a situation where non-destructive entry is not plausible [feasible], is ideal?

This question is in relation to commercial and residential security.

Well... I'd certainly want to see evidence of a crime before sticking my key in the lock and walking into a burglary in progress. So... yeah... give me a busted window over NDE anytime!

I WANT to know something is up before being surprised myself. It might just save innocent life. BTW: You do know... Do not enter even your own house if you suspect a break in? Right?

Does that answer your question?

[digital_blue]

I know this is a bit of a thread hijack, but I once heard that in 7% of all home burglaries, there is one of the homeowners kitchen knives found by the door, left there by the culprits on the way out. This would suggest that the thief grabbed the knife on the way in as protection in case they were discovered.

So hz's advice is certainly worth thinking about.

db

[TOWCH]

Guilty as charged I'm afraid. Last time we had a false alarm at our house after a trip I was sneaking around with my knife in hand like an idiot. Depending on if you like me, good thing it was a false alarm eh?

[Minion]

An unpickable lock could be created... All you'd have to do is seperate the locking mechanism from the person (insert key, key goes through a set of mechanical wards (at this time, the person doesn't see the key until it's done) and is depressed against whatever mechanism is used to lock it, then spit back out)

There's no physical way to pick a lock like that, given that it would be a pretty large mechanism.

[TOWCH]

I've never bought that there is no such thing as an unpickable lock. None of the mechanisms that allow locks to be picked/decoded are impossible to address.

[devildog]

Maybe I should have phrased that differently, as if you want an 'unpickable' lock, then anything electronic will work because it can't be 'picked'

What I MEANT was that there is ALWAYS a way to defeat a lock, and it is impossible to create a lock that will, literally, be impossible to bypass (in a general sense, bypass meaning pick, decode, impression, hack, whatever) by covert non-destructive means.

An example is the Mas-Hamilton X-09; as of right now there are, as far as I know, no known NDE methods of opening the bugger, but I am absolutely positively definately sure that there WILL be sometime in the relatively near future (5-10 years MAX), IF there isn't something already that's just being kept very well under wraps.

To quote the great Chrispy, "make it and someone'll figure out a way to break it" (it was something like that )

[TOWCH]

There's a tool to drill open an X-09 in Lockmasters. Do you mean a way to hack it? It doesn't seem likely but I guess you never know. Maybe they left a flaw in the code easter egged in there so they can sell the military an X-10 down the line.

[raimundo]

residential security systems with keypad control have the big security flaw that is not being used consistantly, people leave the house telling themselve they'll only be a few minutes, and while at the quickymart, they may get the idea to go on to another errand, and thus leave the place off alarm for a longer period of time. Most of these security systems are used in suburbs, where the burglars are the suburban kids, who are well aware of this flaw.

[NKT]

As with everything in life, it's a cost balance.

I roll up to let you in, and see a lock I've never seen before. I look for another way in, and decide, eventually, that I have to drill through whatever this lock is, and hope I can open the door.

At this point, I would ask/tell the owner there was no chance, and I had to drill, but he wouldn't be getting a free replacement of the same type!

I'd then set to with the drill, taking out what looked like the best way in. If I had to get the safe gear out and use a huge diamond core to remove a large section of door, then so be it - if the customer wants it!

I don't care, I'm getting paid for doing it, and for fixing the damage afterwards. He might care when I tell him it's going to be £200 for the three hours of safe opening and wear on the diamond bits, though!

The better the lock the more it costs when it breaks down, same as sports cars and rifles.

Oh, and if it's a court order/warrant, odds are that shiny expensive lock is going to be a second hand £2 Euro when he gets home.