A question about key profiles

[ericm115]

Hi. I was looking at a 7-pin BEST key recently. I was starting from absolutely zero experience with keys and locks a few days ago. I was sitting there, looking at it, trying to figure out where the pins actually made contact with the key; I was trying to determine if the pins hit the peaks or the flat spots.

I have since figured it out, but its raised a question for me. As I've looked at other 7-pin BEST keys, I've noticed that the higher (more highly raised) pin position cuts on the keys tend to have small, sharp peaks on either side of the flat area that the pin lands on. A crude text drawing is below.
_____
^___^ /
__ / \__ / key base->
/ \ _/ \__/
|_________________________

Notice the two sharp peaks. What are they for? I assumed that they were for bouncing and "unsticking" any pins that may bind during a rough key entry -- that they were put there for reliability. I second guessed that answer though when I noticed that most of my other keys don't do that with the highest pin positions. It's just flat, then down to the next pin position with most of my keys.

I searched around a little bit and found this: viewtopic.php?t=9996&highlight=cutting+keys
in which "Dimmy Locks" mentions that the peaks may be to help alignment, but on these BEST 7pin keys, there are often pin flats that barely look wide enough for a pin to fit on before it drops straight off to the lower pin height. I don't know, it confuses me.

If I filed these peaks off, would the key still work? I'm interested in hand filing a duplicate, but I don't understand this key feature. Do I need to include it? Does it matter where or what size? Thanks for the help!

Eric

[Shrub]

I think your goign to have to post a picture of the key that is clear enough so we can see what your meaning,

I think dimmy locks is talking about somthing else in that thread,

[ericm115]

yea, im actually sitting here taking pictures and drafting up a reply now. i noticed the ascii drawing problem after i posted it - it didn't turn out right.

[ericm115]

OK, the two situations I don't understand are shown below.

1) http://i1.tinypic.com/1zz1i0n.jpg

Notice the two peaks on either side of the higher pin position They are indicated by the two arrows. Why not cut it along the blue lines? Would it work? Are these peaks any arbitrary size? It seems like sometimes it has the peaks and other times it doesn't. Many of my other keys (non-BEST) don't have the peaks.

2) http://i1.tinypic.com/1zz243l.jpg

I mentioned that in some instances, the flat is barely wide enough for the pin. That is shown here. If the pin width is shown by the black lines, why is that one flat area (under the red arrow) so narrow? Why would it be obstructed by that bump? Is the bump necessary? Does it push the pin up?


Sorry for the poor illustration the first time.

Eric

[Shrub]

In my opinion the second key is quite poorly cut but i could be missing somthing,

As far as im aware the bumps are just by products of someone useing a cut cutter as in the cutter cuts a flat bottom,

Cut the key from a blank and it will leave the bumps you see, if the cutter was to a point you wouldnt have them,

Im not sure why this is done, it may be that the wrong cutter has been used if they are copied keys as in not original ones but otherwise im not sure, i dont think there is any use for them,

Perhaps the pins in a us lock are a lot bigger diameter than ours as well as the other differances but i cant remember to be honest, i cant just think,

Copy the key with points and see if its any differant,

Other than that someone else is goign to have to answer who actually knows the definitive answer,

Im sorry i cant be of much help.

[ericm115]

If it helps at all, they are keys to that belong to a large university's engineering building. Some of my keys open lots of doors, some of them don't, so I'm sure theres some sort of group thing or sub-master thing going on. Also, if these are duplicates, they were made officially - these are both university-issued.

[Shrub]

But they were still copied and not original keys that means the copier could have the wrong cutter installed,

Are these your keys? and why do you want to copy them?

If they are uni made i am guessing they are restricted and should only be copied with the autorisation from the uni, making master keys etc is frowned upon here if indeed thats what you are up to.

[ericm115]

Yes, these are my keys. I have 8 university keys given to me by a professor whom I do research for. There are also 4 more keys that are in a shared spot in our lab for everyone's use, including mine (the professor didn't have enough spares to give everyone a copy, and doing the paperwork to get new keys is just extra work.) I have the entrance keys to 3 of the university buildings, and can open 15-20 doors with my current clearance; not only am I doing research, I am also the Chair of an IEEE branch. These keys are all rightfully mine, and I'm not trying to break in and steal anything - I have access to all sorts of chemicals, electronics, and even cash now. I am not in this for that purpose. I know it's a long quote, so skip it if you'd like, but I'd like to repost my introduction (from: viewtopic.php?t=2218&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=2715) because it explains why I am interested in this to begin with:

Hello!

I am an Electrical Engineering student *edit.. blahblahblah*

In any case, I'm a new student to the sport and I owe it to LP 101. Over the last few days, I've become super aware of the security (or lack thereof) around my campus. I've been noticing things that I never saw before. Doors left ajar, unshielded strikeplates that can be "shimmed" with a pencil, unlocked file cabinets, etc. Last night I was sitting outside the back door to one of the engineering buildings smoking a cigarette. I had left a rock in the door to prop it open (though I had a key). This guy walks out of that door to go home (this was around 11:30pm). He says to me "Did you put this rock here?" I said, "Yes, but only while I'm here smoking." He says to me, "Well OK, but move it when you go in... we don't want any bad people getting in at night." I thought, "What if I was that "bad person?"" It is ridiculously easy to get financial records, people's SSNs (there was a stack of them on a secretary's desk in front of me the other day when she left the room to go make a copy of something for me.) A buddy of mine recently used a ladder to reach over a classroom wall and through the ceiling tile into an adjacent storage room. He used a long strip of ductape hanging down into the adjacent room to reach down and twist the knob from the inside. Inside he found the original blueprints to the building, made copies, and had the maintenance people let him in to return them the next night.

It just fascinates me now. LP101 has really gotten me interested. I'm thinking of writing a report on the issue to the university. I'm in well with the administration for some other things I'm doing. I think they'd respect it. I'm thinking of using the published method of empirically determining the TMK for the university also. I've got some blanks and plenty of actual keys and doors I can open. It's amazing really. Of course there is a balance between comfortability/trusting people and lock-down security. I'm sure there have been plenty of ethics debates on the issue in the past.

...

I am familiar with the attitudes towards illegal or ethically wrong activities at LP101, and I agree wholeheartedly. Still, this is something I am interested in doing.

Sorry for the longwinded post.

Eric

[Shrub]

Have you actually been given clearance to determine the grand master key etc?

[Shrub]

I only ask so you can make sure your ass is covered regardless of how trusted you are or think you are, somthing always goes wrong and someone always points the finger and someone always takes the fall,

You say you were stood outside having a smoke and yet someone walked through and didnt know you nor knew you had such privliges,

I would make sure i had it on paper that i was allowed to mess around with the locks before anything was done,

[Octillion]

In response to your original post, those peaks are not always necessary, but they are there mainly to keep the key in position. Consider a key which has a high biting at the first position, and gradually the biting becomes deeper up to the final pin. For example, it could be for some arbitrary Schlage lock pinned 13558. When this key is used, without the bumps it would be possible to fully remove the key while the lock is in an opened position, not good for security. Other pinnings would leave the key feeling loose. By having the peaks on these keys, removing the key will require that each pin not stay set at the sheer line as the key is retracted.

The peaks also reduce the amount of material that needs to be cut from a key.

[HeadHunterCEO]

The peaks are nothing more than material that has not been removed by the clipper as the various cuts are chopped out of the key.

They serve no function
you could sit there and file away the peaks but why bother.

[HeadHunterCEO]

The peaks are nothing more than material that has not been removed by the clipper as the various cuts are chopped out of the key.

They serve no function
you could sit there and file away the peaks but why bother.

example, it could be for some arbitrary Schlage lock pinned 13558. When this key is used, without the bumps it woul

alright

[ericm115]

Thanks guys.

Also, thanks Shrub for the wisdom. It is taken well.

[Shrub]

Well you seem to have your head screwed on unlike others that useually ask these sort of questions for this sort of reason so i wish you luck but make sure your not going to get the high jump for doing it, let us know how you get on.