Strange Occurance

[mattman]

I went to a customer's house today to rekey four of their house locks. They wanted all of their locks keyed to the same key, and then wanted four copies of the key made.

So I rekeyed the locks to the original key, got my key cutting machine out, made sure it was adjusted right, and copied the keys. The only thing is that the copies wouldn't operate the lock unless you pulled the keys out about 1/16th of an inch. I went back to my machine to make sure that it wasn't out of adjustment, and it was adjusted perfectly. I even lined up the copies with the original, and it looked like all of the cuts had exactly the same depths and spacing. They looked identical in every way. They just didn't work the same. The original key still worked perfectly.

Has anyone ever had this happen to them? This is the first time it had ever happened to me, and it has me completely confused.

-Matt

[sfi72]

The key you were copying probably had a slight bend to it, and therefore the machine didn't copy it over to the blank quite right.

[mattman]

The key you were copying probably had a slight bend to it, and therefore the machine didn't copy it over to the blank quite right.

Aaaah! I never thought about that. I'll check with the customer tomorrow, and if that is the case, I'll make him some new copies. He said that he would use these copies anyway, and I didn't charge him anything for them. But on a personal note, it bugs me that one of my customers has keys that don't work the way they should work. I don't like that at all. I'll hopefully be able to fix the problem for him tomorrow... for FREE.

Thanks,
Matt

[raimundo]

Many many people with old and worn locks have "trick keys", and as long as the people who use them know the trick there is no problem, if anyone stole the key ring and started trying them out, that person would not know that trick and would pass that key by as not fitting.

I once had two fords cut on one blank, you had to know that or at least take the key out and try it again if it did not work, this was a 50% solution to that trick key security, but it was actually done to lighten the keyring.


I say call it a security solution and if you cut them non trick keys, they can use them when they must lend a key to an outsider, thereby not showing the trick to temporarily trusted people, also, the fact that they have an uncopyable key is a security thing. there are other discussions here about making uncopiable keys, by cutting away some of the bottom edge of the key.

[mattman]

Many many people with old and worn locks have "trick keys", and as long as the people who use them know the trick there is no problem, if anyone stole the key ring and started trying them out, that person would not know that trick and would pass that key by as not fitting.

Hey that's an idea! I could goof up on making copies of keys, and then sell them to the customer for higher price as "trick keys." LOL! Just kidding.

Anyway, I contacted the customer and told him what the probable cause was, and offered to cut the keys by code instead copying them from the original (which is what I'll probably do from now on), and that I would do it for free. And he said that he was completely satisfied with the keys that I made, and that there was no need for me to do that. I guess as long as the customer is happy, I should be happy!

-Matt

[ridderhenck]

That,s the kind of costumer we all would like to have,cherish them!!

The way you handled it was very good,kudo,s

[sugurfoot]

I think I would have taken one of the locks apart and used one of my copies to see if it hit all the pins correctly, If it didnt then you see what needs to be changed. I always cut to code and check it before I put it together again.

[mattman]

I think I would have taken one of the locks apart and used one of my copies to see if it hit all the pins correctly, If it didnt then you see what needs to be changed.

I would have done that, but the customer had some place to go, and there wasn't enough time.

I always cut to code and check it before I put it together again.

That's what I'm going to do from now on. I made the mistake of ASSUMING that since the original key worked the lock perfectly, that a copy of the original would work the exact same. I learned that that is not always the case.

-Matt

[mhole]

The copy simply had too big a gap between the first cut and the shoulder. This can be caused by not aligning the machine correctly, or by a work should which doesn't register correctly in the machine.

You fix this, you can cut a copy which has too small a gap bewteen the first cut and the shoulder (insert a small shim between the original keys should and the shoulder stop on the machine) then file the should back until it works properly.

This is an extremely common phenomena on copies of copies, cut on poorly setup machines.

[raimundo]

by the time you reach third generation of copied, a machine that is properly adjusted for depth, will still have the possibility of widening the bottoms of the deep cuts and this can cut away at the peak that may hold a short pin up between two long pins, as the cut bottoms widen because of the shape/angle of the cutting wheel, it can completelly remove the peak that a short pin between to long ones would sit on.
Copies of copies of copies, third gen copies, and beyond, can really drift away from the original.

I made a key for a locked restroom at a cafe, they let customers use the key and customers walked away with it so often, that when I made a key for them, it was actually cut a millimeter or two deeper than what I impressioned the working key to. They had been telling the customers how to use this 'trick' key, by pulling it out of the lock till the pins rode up the sides of the cuts but that had become very difficult with the xxx..generation key they had.

[maxxed]

Many key machines require you to load the blank key first and then align the original key to it. If this is not done then there is a slight misalignment of the spacing. A customer who duplicated their own keys gave me a perfectly good Ilco automatic machine because they could not get it to work. The problem was user error
Another problem that I have encountered is cheap keyblanks that do not sit correctly in the keyway. I purchased 2000 WR5 keyblanks on a special only to find that they were made off shore and did not sit correctly in the lock. You will have similar problems if you try to use a KW1 keyblank in a WR5 lock. The key will go into the lock but will be .010" too low so you will need to pull the key out a bit to make it work

[mattman]

You will have similar problems if you try to use a KW1 keyblank in a WR5 lock. The key will go into the lock but will be .010" too low so you will need to pull the key out a bit to make it work

The customer's lock actually was a Weiser lock with a KW1 keyway. I remember because he showed me his key, and I just assumed I would be rekeying a Kwikset, since they are very common in this area. But then when I got to his house, I discovered it wasn't a Kwikset at all. I wonder if that was the problem all along?

Thanks Maxxed!
-Matt

[maxxed]

Kwickset fits Weiser because the profile is very similar but the weiser key is too thick to fit the kwickset. I often need to rekey a mix of WR5 and KW1 locks to the same key. To do this I carry some KW1 keys that the spacing has been adjusted to fit both locks and use a plug holder to ensure accuracy when keying the Weiser