master key systems and taking over a apartment. what to do..

[nls777]

So one of the main jobs I have is rekeys for apartments now they all have master keys just one and I know when I was working for my last employer as a locksmith apprentice we had a master key program. I never got to into learning how it worked or used it for apartments I was rekeying when working for them.
I would like to know what problems may come of not using a master key program when rekeying for a apartmant. also is there any way other than going to the old locksmith and asking them for print outs "not going to happen" what actions are usualy taken when reciving a new cliant ?

[nls777]

as Im on this topic of masterkeys. what do you usualy feel comfortable using as the smallist size of master pins? I always offer a 2 year warrenty but only because I am using very small Mpins some times and dont want to risk having problems later. any ways of getting around rekeying a old lock with very close tolerances from the owners key and the master key ? should I just cut the owner a new set that has larger pin sizes not so close together?

[loki-aka]

What type of locks ? How many doors ? What is the hierarchy of the system, single level, sub-mastered ?

If the system is of any complexity, you can get in to a LOT of trouble without the proper software--such as MACS
violations, inadvertant creation of ghost-keys and other issues-- and sytem information. I know you alluded to not having access to a map of system, but you can always ask. The locksmith who designed the system may have the intellectual rights, but maybe the building owner does. Ask.

[nls777]

sounds good, 5 floors 1 master key for every lock total of 200+ doors around, no other masters no more that 2 keys per lock "master and owners key"

so does that mean any time a new locksmith takes over if the apartmant does not own the rights then they have to have every single lock changed if the passed locksmith does not want to give them the info?

it maybe for the best to ask if they would like them all done, they have had lobby keys work with past locks and ive found multiple locks with only 3 pins in them and worse things.

[globallockytoo]

I like to use a minimum 3 difference in depths. But this can drastically reduce the number of change keys (considering a 5 or 6 pin inline system).

Changing to Abloy or Bilock dramatically increases the number of potential change keys.

You dont need software to design a master key system. I have designed and built many inline system using the standard chart and pen and paper.

The most difficult part of any system (written by hand) is preventing ghost keys (phantoms).

It is fundamentally easy to design your chart, work out your master key levels and just copy your constants.

Not painful if you understand the principle.

[nls777]

thanks alot for your help we did get a little into small systems at school but never into computer ones so ill have to research

[globallockytoo]

depending on the system, you can determine the chart, if you have access to approximately 5 of the different existing keys in the system. You decode those keys and can work out the master easily, then just chart it. But if the system already has rampant interchange, you could be entering a nightmare.

That is why it is often better to scrap the existing system and start over.

Even if you decided to work out the keying of the existing system, it can be a painstaking process, but you may be unable to accurately determine which key works where, even if you have determined all the correct keys.

For 1 master and 200 change keys, it is straightforward to determine the depths of the change keys in a 6 pin inline system in about 1.5 hours, including determining loadings.

[lockrite]

sounds good, 5 floors 1 master key for every lock total of 200+ doors around, no other masters no more that 2 keys per lock "master and owners key"

it maybe for the best to ask if they would like them all done, they have had lobby keys work with past locks and ive found multiple locks with only 3 pins in them and worse things.

This sounds like a potential nightmare.
Do yourself a favour, scrap the existing system then design and install a properly set up system.

[nostromo]

Is there a chance that the owner has a copy of the contract with the previous locksmith? If so, can you ask to look it over and see if there is are any specifics of what happens at contract termination?

I know, shooting in the dark, but it won't take long. You never know!

Getting software is worth it if you get more of this kind of business in volume or for rush jobs. Which you SHOULD get if you provide good service. Sounds like the bar to leap isn't very high right now. Sounds like you have the best kind of competition, especially when word gets around.

Break a leg!

[Thisguy]

That sounds like a system that may not really exist (just random keying), or one you would not want to maintain.
If it was me I would explain the insecurities of the current situation with the keying they have, do this carefully some feel insulted or skeptical your just trying to scam them. Offer to start a new system and to over time convert the entire facility/space into the current system if they are not willing to immediately redo the entire facility/space.

If they are not willing to start a new system have them sign a form resembling this one (make your own! I just remember this one is online) http://www.topnotch.bz/PDFs/KeyingDisclaimer.pdf
Protect yourself from the mess you did not create and are being asked to maintain. The form may cause them to rethink the situation.

Software is nice, quick and convenient but you should learn to do a system this size by hand. You'll have a much better grasp and understanding of master keying. Get a good book on the subject or better find a class. For the sake of this customer and your sanity you could try and get some help with getting a system drawn up from one of your suppliers/sales rep. , another locksmith you have good relationship with etc...

[globallockytoo]

Better yet.

Offer them a system from new at one price.

Offer them a determined system (what's there now) for 3-5 times the cost.

That should get them thinking.