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Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
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Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Antique key maker » 16 Apr 2010 15:20

I bought one of the typical Schlage cutaways on Ebay. I must say that I was not very happy with it.

It was not very smooth, the key was very hard to put in and you could feel that it was not very smooth when turning. I think the problem is that it was not deburred properly. The maker decided to soak it in WD40 which smells, to help make it more smooth and get around the fact that it was not made poperly.

Some of the pins would actually be stuck up when pushing them up.

I am not even sure this would be a good lock to learn picking on because it is all harder to turn etc.

What I think is that the people selling these locks on Ebay are trying to sell them to cheap. I picked mine up in an auction and luckily did not pay much for it. So for under $20 dollars, why would they want to make sure that it works smoothly and is deburred correctly.

Does anyone know if this is the typical case for cutaway cylinder locks?

I almost want to leave negative feedback to help others know that the lock will probably not work smoothly.
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Evan » 16 Apr 2010 15:28

Was it a homemade cutaway or a factory made cutaway ? Some home machinists are better than others... If you think the cause of the problem is burrs inside the cylinder you could take it apart and remove those burrs yourself...

Sorry to hear that you purchased something you are unhappy with, have you attempted to contact the seller to see if they would be willing to accept the cutaway back in return for refunding most of your purchase price ? If they aren't willing that is what eBay feedback is all about -- in this situation it sounds like a poor quality item was sold or the seller possibly misrepresented the quality of the item...

Good Luck...

~~ Evan
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby lock2006 » 16 Apr 2010 16:37

Well for sure it was homemade cutaway
i have a friend with the same problem
he tought it was a good deal,but when he got the Schlage cutaway
same problem like yours
he never got his money back,i will say if you planning to get any cutaway
go for factory made cutaway good luck.
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby MacGyver101 » 16 Apr 2010 19:42

I think it's just a matter of expectations.

I picked up a Best SFIC cut-away not so long ago off eBay for about the same price... and it arrived in pretty much the same condition (a tablespoon of WD40, some pretty rough cuts, and an awful sandpaper-like noise when you turned the key). Given the price, though, I wasn't overly concerned... and a half-hour with a file had things running much smoother. I'm now very happy with it.

Mildly off-topic, but I have to admit: after seeing the simplicity of the "six passes with a Dremel wheel" cut-aways that seem to be most prevalent on eBay at the moment, it looks like pretty easy money if you have the knowledge and time. :|
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby lock2006 » 17 Apr 2010 0:00

MacGyver101 wrote:

Mildly off-topic, but I have to admit: after seeing the simplicity of the "six passes with a Dremel wheel"
cut-aways that seem to be most prevalent on eBay at the moment, it looks like pretty easy money
if you have the knowledge and time. :|



I agree with you MacGyver101. :)
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Evan » 17 Apr 2010 0:10

@MacGyver101:

Interesting idea about the manufacturing of decent cutaways... I wish I could do that but I don't have the capital or the right equipment to make cutaways...

What sort of cutaways do you think there is a market for ? Are people looking for basic cutaway lock cylinders or are they out looking for the more expensive and exotic high security cutaway cylinders ?

~~ Evan
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Antique key maker » 17 Apr 2010 0:18

MacGyver101 wrote:I think it's just a matter of expectations.

Mildly off-topic, but I have to admit: after seeing the simplicity of the "six passes with a Dremel wheel" cut-aways that seem to be most prevalent on eBay at the moment, it looks like pretty easy money if you have the knowledge and time. :|


Actually it is not easy money, it is competitve on ebay as everyone has the same idea, so you won't get a lot of money for it. The problem is, to do a high quality cut-away lock, it will take time and patience. Is it really worth 2 hours of your time to cut and deburr everything to make it work smoothly? Make one simple mistake in your cuts and the lock is now worthless.

Add that to the cost and time of shipping it, marketing it, answering E-mails, People having problems, Ebay fees, it is not worth the 20-30 bucks you may get.
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Evan » 17 Apr 2010 0:30

Antique key maker wrote:Add that to the cost and time of shipping it, marketing it, answering E-mails, People having problems, Ebay fees, it is not worth the 20-30 bucks you may get.



Maybe not for one or two, but if you were good at doing it and that became known amongst a community like this one and people here bought your cutaways and told friends you would have word of mouth referrals and build a good seller record on eBay...

Once you got to the point where you were doing a certain volume it would become profitable unless you were paying retail price to buy new cylinders to make the cutaways... Someone would even be able to offer customized cutaways, as I have seen a few people here and there discussing that although their cutaway functions properly they are disappointed because it wasn't done a certain way so they could see something specific...

~~ Evan
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby unlisted » 17 Apr 2010 0:54

There are a few well known and established members on here who do cutaways professionally, and properly. (in their spare time) Right now the market is in the toilet so to speak. When they would get $50-100 for a lock a few years back, they now make $10-35 on the same item. Takes hours on the milling machine- they don't bugger around with dremel tools for the cuts.

With the investment, and the time spent, its not really worth it. 20-30 bucks for (around 3) hours of labor, and however many hours of marketing is not really... uh.. profitable or something you can make a living on.

Now, with that said, if you have the equipment, experience cutting metal on a mill, some spare time on your hands, lots of spare locks to cut, and you find your good at it, you can make some extra coin. I know its not anything to quit your day job over thou.
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Evan » 17 Apr 2010 1:11

@unlisted:

Thanks for your input... I knew it was something that required more than a dremel tool, a common hand drill and a reciprocating saw to do properly... Even the miniature hobbyist's version of a milling machine as shown on the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_machine looks like it would it would cost a lot of money without even factoring in the assortment of cutting tools you would need to do much of anything with it...

It is the spare locks to cut thing that seems to make some sense to me as far as profitability... But was there ever really a market for such cutaways or were people buying them because they couldn't find one that made a certain way and settled for what was out there because they could afford it... It seems that those skilled at making cutaways and had the right equipment could potentially make custom ones for people who would provide the cylinder and pay the shipping costs and some hourly rate perhaps... What kind of demand might there be for something like that ?

Definitely agree that it is not something to quit a day job over...

~~ Evan
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby unlisted » 17 Apr 2010 1:25

Evan,

I've looked into doing this personally before, since I've done some work at a CNC shop.. (heh) My god father owned one until he retired. I almost scored the smallest milling machine he had, but since it ran on 440 volts, and weighed about 6 tonnes, I passed. (after all, I didn't need to make aircraft parts) :lol:

You need a hobby milling machine first. A good one as well. The Cheap Asian milling machines will set you back around 1k - for something that will last more than a year, and has metal parts. (they like to stick plastic tracks and gears in the cheap ones, stay away from those) After all the shipping costs, customs, etc, I still recommend spending a bit more $$ out of pocket, and going with a local (USA/Canada) built milling machine- plus this way you will get a good warranty, and not have to worry about shipping it halfway around the world if there is an issue... (plus it'd be lots easier talking to someone in tech support local, vs overseas, or just getting questions answered, etc)

Than, you need all the cutting bits, which are.. expensive as well. You also don't want to cheap out on this, as they actually produce the cut, and rough (or good) final product, dependent on how much time you want to spend on it. Than there is the table cost, and the vice cost.

Now, thats just the major cost in equipment, there is lots of other stuff you will find you want, like buffing wheels, probably a dremel for something (detail polishing, etc) and so forth.

Than come the locks themselves. I am told expect to "kill" 3-7 locks for each type/model you cut, until you get good enough to not bugger up. If your planning on doing mass locks of a certain type, build a cutting guide/jig (more time and $$$, but if your mass doing a certain type, you want this route) Without knowing where to cut, and having a jig for assistance, each lock will take time and detailed precision controls in cutting and movement.

And of course, there is countless hours sitting there, wondering how the f#&$ to get a good, clear view of item or part X without parts Y and Z flying out, falling out, not operating properly, lock breaking in half from compromised structure, etc. This also goes hand in hand with the paragraph above, regarding "killing" locks.

Basically, IMO, custom cutaways (proper ones) are more of an art form, than tossing some metal and drilling/cutting it. I'm still considering doing it.. One day, but I don't have the finances currently to purchase all the required tools. I am keeping my ears and eyes open for a deal (used, online, ebay, etc)

There also may be a thread on making cutaways, I cannot recall. You may want to take a look around for it. :)
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Evan » 17 Apr 2010 2:06

@unlisted:

Yikes... Costs a lot...

If I was in the market for machinery to buy personally I would buy an HPC 1200 Blitz machine of my own and like four of the cutters for it and the expanded card deck as my first purchase... I really do find myself missing the one I used to have daily use of at my previous employer...

Every key we made in the facilities shop there was cut on that code machine using an OEM key blank, which I know sounds like overkill, but we hardly ever had serious issues with broken or seriously bent keys like you would if you used less expensive aftermarket blanks and also had no need to keep a sample copy of every key in the various master key systems we had at the portfolio of properties we were responsible for to be able to copy them on a regular duplicator machine... We had a very intimidating looking safe like you would find in a retail jewelry store which besides having two separate locks keeping it locked had all sorts of alarm system sensors built into it... We kept the system bitting charts in three ring binders and the keyblanks locked safely inside... If someone messed with it or sneezed too hard at it when it was armed, we'd get a call from ADT about it, if it was left open or unlocked for too long we'd get a call about it and be challenged by the ADT operator for a valid code...

I am good with hand tools and power tools but have never worked in a machine shop beyond using a drill press and a bench grinder, which seem like babies toys compared to a milling machine and some of the CNC controlled metal lathes I have seen on TV shows like "How It's Made"...

I was sort of wondering out loud at what it would take to make it a profitable thing for someone who already had the skills and equipment... Thanks for the thorough break down...

~~ Evan
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Re: Bought Cutaway on Ebay and not happy

Postby Rickthepick » 17 Apr 2010 8:34

to be honest id expect it to be imperfect if its not a manufacturers display lock.

If you want real quality cutaways id expect to pay a fair bit for it.
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