ABUS CISA problems: cylinder turning - doesn't open

[reiem]

Hi, am all new to the forum AND the occupation, and am currently trying to open my first lock. So hopefully I'll find some help here...

Am working on a ABUS CISA (5 pins, europrofile), and have managed to pick it - at least i think. Have been able to set all the pins, the cylinder is turning 360 degree. after that, the pins jump back into place, its locked again. Have done that several times now, i.e. 'unlocked it' - but the lock doesn't open... very frustrating. Any ideas, why that might be? did I miss something? Is there anything else I need to do?

Thanks in advance.

[mhole]

Is this a rim cylinder or a euro cylinder? A euro cylinder will turn fully when picked without doing *anything* unless you have used a tension wrench handle or 99999 key to activate the cam.

[Solomon]

Is this a rim cylinder or a euro cylinder? A euro cylinder will turn fully when picked without doing *anything* unless you have used a tension wrench handle or 99999 key to activate the cam.

It's probably a euro, rim cylinders only turn 45 degrees in either direction. The cam will engage from the picked side just fine unless there is a thumbturn or key inserted on the other side. Sometimes it won't engage properly if the cam has slipped but this is pretty rare.

Reiem, since the lock in question is in a door, we can't help you with this problem. Sorry.

[mhole]

With all due respect, I imagine I've picked more euros in situ than you have, and you need to engage the cam or the cylinder will spin without doing anything. This isn't rare, it's normal. I keep a bump key in my pick pouch so I can insert it into a picked euro to pickup the cam for this exact reason. When picking in the hand the cam will sometimes engage on it's own, but on a door this is far from usual... it's a PITA!

Also, an 1109 may well turn more than 45 degrees when fitted to a lock with double locking operation. I can't tell you how many calls I've had from people who call a locksmith because a 360 degree turn of their key didn't open the door, when what was needed was a 450 degree turn!

[Solomon]

With all due respect, I imagine I've picked more euros in situ than you have, and you need to engage the cam or the cylinder will spin without doing anything. This isn't rare, it's normal. I keep a bump key in my pick pouch so I can insert it into a picked euro to pickup the cam for this exact reason. When picking in the hand the cam will sometimes engage on it's own, but on a door this is far from usual... it's a PITA!

Also, an 1109 may well turn more than 45 degrees when fitted to a lock with double locking operation. I can't tell you how many calls I've had from people who call a locksmith because a 360 degree turn of their key didn't open the door, when what was needed was a 450 degree turn!

I'll take your word for it, but I've picked a ton of euros and the cam always turns when picked... I've got one iseo lock which stopped at 45 degrees once without engaging, but that's about it - and I just had to turn the cylinder back a little then it worked fine. As a hobbyist I mostly pick in a vise, but inside a door the cylinder itself works exactly the same way so I don't see why you'd need to engage it manually unless something was going on at the other side.

On top of all the cylinders I've picked in the vise, I've also picked the euros on both my doors, the back door of my old house, and the locks on 2 friends houses... cam always engaged without trouble. I've never heard any locksmith mention this either, only time they need to fish the cam is if there is a key in the other side or it's a thumbturn. What kind of euros are you mostly dealing with?

As for rim cylinders, I forgot all about the 1109. I was thinking more of the Y77 style night latches as they're the most common... d'oh

[LocksmithArmy]

im going to go with, yoru both right, it depends on the lock, some need the tip of the key to grab the cam, others use prongs on the core...
and the same is tru with rim cylinders, some only need to turn a bit, others need alot. it all depends on how the locks are designed, or rather the hardware they are interacting with.

[Rickthepick]

im with mhole

use a cut down key to put pressure on the clutch in the lock. Anyhting with a thumbturn on the other side has a spring loaded clutch so constant pressure is required.

rim cylinders will require more than a full rotation if the arrows on the nightlatch cam arent aligned properly, but you would feel a bit of resistance at about 340degrees, probably not enough to retract the bolt.

funny how the OP states this is an occupation and does not know any of this though breaking and entering i reckon

[mhole]

I gave a little more thought to this today, and I think that one contributor to whether or not the cam is engaged or not how the lock was last locked.

In the case of front doors, it will often have last been locked with the key from outside, hence the key will already have engaged the external plug with the cam. On back doors, often it will have been locked from inside, and the clutch will have to be activated to pickup the cam from outside.

Even if the cylinder hasn't been locked with a key, the act of slamming the door could cause the clutch to jump from one side to the other, and when picking in the hand or in a vice, gravity may well be a factor - the cam clutch can be operated by tilting the lock as it isn't mounted level in a door.

This is supported by the euro I picked today - internal door, keys lost. Last locked (probably only ever locked) from inside, and it unlocked without my having to engage the cam.