Which tool should I buy next File or Vise?

[WolfSpring]

I'm learning to Impression and I've just started the Foley-Belsaw course, havn't even got my first skill pack yet. But I bought the key holder and the head magnification unit. I've got a simple triangle file and FB will send me the one's I'll need to do keys, though I doubt they are any good. RIght now I'm working on impressioning an American 5200 with pins 1,3,5 in And I start to see the marks right away and lose them right around the 2 depth, I'm thinking I'm going in two sharp and need to roud out my cuts, but it's starting to hurt my hand holding the lock.

I figure two things will help a lot. A vise and a Pippin file. Problem is not that I can't afford them both but I'm limited on what I get as my "allowance" especially with christmas comming and my kids are more important. The pippin is $58 and the vise is $35. I get 100 bucks every two weeks spending cash, if I get them both right now after shipping I'll have nothing for two weeks . So which of the two will get me the more use? I'll end up buying them both in the long run, but I got some other items I want first

I understand the importance of the pippin file, and I'm hoping it will help me make better cuts to be able to see the next indentations, but the vise will make it so I can get the indentations into the key easier and I do have a basic file already. I've watched several tutorials online and I know what I"m looking for and the headset I have is great magnification and lighting. Maybe even I should start with one pin in the key so I know right where it will be?

Any guidance on this is much appreciated.

[Raymond]

The vise will provide much more uses for all kinds of projects than just a file. Until you save up for a pippin file, a common chainsaw sharpening file can be used. These can be purchased locally for pretty cheap.

On your triangular file, grind smooth one corner so you can enlarge cuts. It will allow you to widen cuts and perfectly smooth the ramps. By putting the file in the bottom of a cut you can tilt it and smooth out the ramp without changing the depth of the cut.

[WolfSpring]

Thats what I'm going to do, don't have access to a grinder though. I'll get the vise now and maybe some more blanks to practice with and then get a pippin in a couple weeks. Sometimes you just need anothers opion to validate your own thoughts on a subject.

Thank you.

[jos weyers]

any vice will do.
so i would go for a cheapo cheapo (maybe scond hand) vice and order a decent round file.

[raimundo]

You should know that Jos Weyers is some kind of european champion impressioner, though I believe that he only started a few years ago.
hes reccommending a round file which was once the standard for impressioning before the pippin file got four times as expensive as any other file.

pippin has only one rounded side, the other side has flats.

a round file has new sharp teeth on all the sides. and a skilled impressioner will not have a problem with making strokes that keep the 45 degree slopes dressed as they should be.
the pippin helps the less skilled in this slope dressing.

I started impressioning in 1970 when round files were pretty much the standard. I would guess I may have impressioned more locks than Jos, in the last 40 years, impressioning was always considered the sure method of opening a lock that was resistiing picking. as well as creating a replacement key.

It seems that the FBI's onetime favorite lockpicker, H edward tickel always used impressioning. I think I read that on barrys blackbag.

[WolfSpring]

I am having the wife send out a small round file I already had, lock the site I use has a medium for 17 and a fine cut for $20, which I could get both for less then the pippin, I'm thinking of going witht he fine cut, would this be the best deciscion? I appreciate the advice greatly and I am quite suprised that you would steer me away from the pippin, and your explanation is great. Most people I've been talking to seem to steer me towards the more expensive stuff in this art and I've found sometimes the cheaper, better quality and home made items work best. I'm glad I can save money on this and not sacrafice skill, instead learn to become more skilled from your description and as far as Jos any professional giving advice should always be listened to if one wishes to follow in the path of greatness. I am limited to where I can buy and I buy from and the site I currently use does not always have the lowest price but they can ship to overseas(APO, Iraq and such) and offer a military discout. I did find a cheaper vise at a hardware store, but I'm not sure if I have the patience to wait just to save 10 bucks. I was able to impressoin my first key last night with 3 of 5 pins in, tonight I am going for the full 5 pins.

Are security pins easier to impression than standard pins?

Again thank you all for the guidance and advice.

[femurat]

Just buy a round file with the finest cut you can find: it's easier to see the marks if the cut is clean. when I don't have a fine file I improvise wrapping a piece of 600 grit sandpaper around a wooden stick to finish the cut made with a too rough file before wiggling the blank again. I don't know if this method is considered a good one but it worked well for me.

I think you don't need the rough file for impressioning.

Cheers

[WolfSpring]

Just buy a round file with the finest cut you can find: it's easier to see the marks if the cut is clean. when I don't have a fine file I improvise wrapping a piece of 600 grit sandpaper around a wooden stick to finish the cut made with a too rough file before wiggling the blank again. I don't know if this method is considered a good one but it worked well for me.

I think you don't need the rough file for impressioning.

Cheers

That is funny because last night I used a small strip of sand paper on the back end of my file to make the cuts a little finer all I have is a 2 inch strip by 1/2 in strip for now and I used that technique, it's nice to know that I thought of that and someone else out there has done that, I'm starting to think I have a natural knack for this stuff and am enjoying myself along the way.

[Raymond]

I personally do not own a pippin file but have several round ones. Ditto on everything said previously.

Impressioning locks with security pins is no different than other locks most of the time. (There are a few exceptions.) If the pins bind, and mark, then cut.

[yng_pick]

My opinion echoes the above,
a decent round file would be my suggestion.

I received a grobet pippin a while back and definetly prefer the round file. I understand the benefits of a pippin file, but I am much more comfortable with the round file.

As far as a vice, it is great if you have a good workspace for it. I threw a small vice in the truck I use, but do not have any decent enough surfaces to attach it to, so it has just sat unused. Most locks I impression are either still attached to what they are locked to, and if not, and if I am on the road, I have become fairly comfortable with impressioning a lock while holding it.

[WolfSpring]

I'm learning on padlocks primarily. For 60 bucks I can get a vacuum vise a fine cut round file and 25 American blanks to work with. As opposed to 95 with the pippin included. I thought of a table vise but it would damage the cheap wood desks we have out here and the vacuum vise can go on the file cabinet I have. I do really appreicate the advise from all of you and am actually going to follow it.

[raimundo]

Wolfspring, a vacuum vise may not work easily in the sandbox, it requires a clean smooth impermeable surface to attach, I think this kind of vice always fails eventually and faster in sand.

when you impression, you gradually lower the pin stack until it reaches the shear line, and the real trick is to know when to stop cutting.
because you are lowering pin stacks only to the shearline, you do not even encounter the lockup of the shearling and the upper security pins.
essentially, its just as easy to impression a lock with security pins as any without them.
a fine file and a careful file stroke, will leave a smooth surface to read, but you may find that you need to cut two strokes rather than just one because the fine cut takes less metal off for each stroke, and consequently it lowers the pin stacks at a slightly slower rate.

study your file stroke, in impressioning, you are centering your cut with the pointed end of the file and following with the fatter body of the file that will cut a wider deeper valley.
If you are leaving a surface that appears to have two or more planes meeting on the critical bottom of the cut, watch your file as you stroke it, it may be that you start the cut on a slightly up angle then as your arm gets nearer to the middle of the file stroke you are tilting the point down. This can be very hard to adjust on a flat bench that is not at the perfect height for your stature. My benchpin (jewelers term but very useful for all filing projects) is just a two by four cut at a 30 degree angle so that as I put a groove in it to hold the work and then file across a blank most of the file stroke is actually at this 30 degree angle. your upper arm rotates around the axis of your shoulder, so at the elbow it makes a circular action and the forearm holding the file must adjust the angle throughout the stroke to mitigate this arc, and make the file go straight across the metal. like it had a gunsite on it and a fixed target in front of it.

It really is worth it to be aware of these ergonomic issues.

[sparkster]

I have had the pleasure of meeting and seeing jos weyers and oliver diederichsen in action when impressioning, i even have olivers book (impressioning) and is a great piece of literature, lots of info in there, if your looking for a file then i would go with a grobet/vallorbe 150mm/6inch cut 4 round file, i also have pippin files that i never use for impressioning as the round file does the job just right, you can buy the cut 4 file for around $20, i have impressioned quite a number of locks, ranging from euro to cylinder both 5 and 6 pin, i have even done a few kabba locks, you dont have to spend 50+ dollars on one file when there are plenty of alternatives out there, the file leaves a smooth surface when used so seeing the marks is easier, at first you will snap quite a few blanks but as you get used to it this will drop.
Dont rush the cuts, start by doing one stroke at a time on the key (i find 2 strokes is enough for one key depth) , its like anything else, practice and it will come, brass blanks are the best to use as steel is a little hard, but steel can be impressioned.
Remember, if your not sure that the mark being made is actually a mark, dont file it

[Lockerbee]

I bought a 6" pippin file off of eBay for less than $28 delivered. I got a small vise from Harbor Freight for $6 (new but discontinued) and attached it to an 8" long 2"x6". Both work great!