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Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
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Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby giant92 » 9 Dec 2011 22:34

Could you masterkey a defiant lock with kwickset locks.I've got a client who wants about 15 locks masterkeyed. 10 are kwikset and 5 are defiant.He does not want to replace the defiant to kwikset.If you can couild i use kwikset pinning kit.
Thanks
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby Squelchtone » 9 Dec 2011 22:42

giant92 wrote:Could you masterkey a defiant lock with kwickset locks.I've got a client who wants about 15 locks masterkeyed. 10 are kwikset and 5 are defiant.He does not want to replace the defiant to kwikset.If you can couild i use kwikset pinning kit.
Thanks
giant92


If our terminology is the same, then in short, yes you can master key the two brands to work on the same key.

Do you mean master keyed so that the client has a key that opens all 15 locks, and each lock is also keyed to its own change key that, let's say a tenant has, and it opens their lock, but not any of the other 14 locks? or do you just mean you want the 15 locks "keyed alike" so the client can open the 15 locks using just 1 key, and no other keys open that lock, only that one key?

If both locks are KW1 keyway, then you can pin them up to use the same key, master keying is also possible but it's a Kwikset KW1 keyway and each pin stack has 6 (technically 7) steps instead of 9 (technically 10) like Schlage, so yeah you can master key it, but its not the ideal lock for that kind of setup.

Hope this helps,
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby giant92 » 9 Dec 2011 22:47

Yes masterkeyed, Each of them has a change key and then a masterkey to fit all.A kwikset key fits in the defiant so does that mean I can masterkey all the locks.
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby Squelchtone » 9 Dec 2011 22:56

giant92 wrote:Yes masterkeyed, Each of them has a change key and then a masterkey to fit all.A kwikset key fits in the defiant so does that mean I can masterkey all the locks.
Giant92


100% Yes. The Defiant is just a clone of the Kwikset with KW1 keyway, 5 pin lock.

One thing you have to look out for is that the master key you have has a couple cuts that are not as deep as the change key, or likewise make sure that all the change keys have a couple cuts deeper than the master key, so that someone can't file a regular key down into a master key.

I'm sure more seasoned experts will chime in to this thread with more details and advice.

If you are also changing out springs or driver pins, drop some spool pins in there to help slow down any lockpicking attempts that may occur.

Have a good one,
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby giant92 » 9 Dec 2011 23:04

Thanks alot,I was hoping he would agree to change the defiants but I had no luck.I masterkeyed before ,I just never masterkeyed defiant.I do know I don't like rekeying them.Thanks alot
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby Squelchtone » 9 Dec 2011 23:08

No problem man, by the way, here's something you may find handy:

Kwikset rekeying manual PDF:
http://tinyurl.com/7qdw8qx

Kwikset Master key chart generator:
http://home.earthlink.net/~wzd3/masterkey.htm

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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby Squelchtone » 9 Dec 2011 23:15

I found the post that references that Master chart Generator: viewtopic.php?p=43923

That thread makes some good points, such as not reusing any of the existing 15 change keys *if possible* and watching out for MACS rules so key insertion is smooth. I'm sure you know what MACS rules are, since it sounds like you do some locksmith or maintenance work, if not, feel free to ask or Google or search here. http://lockpickernetwork.wikidot.com/un ... ey-bitting

Useful info on Space and Depth and MACS for Kwikset:
http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_an ... _and_Depth

:-)
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby giant92 » 9 Dec 2011 23:23

Thanks for the info, good stuff
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby cledry » 29 Dec 2011 23:30

The main thing you need to check is the spacing when you key different locks with the same keyway. Just because a KW1 slides in doesn't mean the spacing is the same. You can use any depths in theory, for example your key could use Kwikset spacing but you could use Schlage depths and use corresponding Schlage length pins thus giving you more changes than a Kwikset system. Rekeying Defiant locks is no more difficult than a Schlage or Kwikset really, assuming you don't rekey by removing the cap on the bible which some maintenance men I know seem to think is the way to rekey locks.
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby Evan » 30 Dec 2011 15:48

cledry wrote:The main thing you need to check is the spacing when you key different locks with the same keyway. Just because a KW1 slides in doesn't mean the spacing is the same. You can use any depths in theory, for example your key could use Kwikset spacing but you could use Schlage depths and use corresponding Schlage length pins thus giving you more changes than a Kwikset system. Rekeying Defiant locks is no more difficult than a Schlage or Kwikset really, assuming you don't rekey by removing the cap on the bible which some maintenance men I know seem to think is the way to rekey locks.


@cledry:

Actually using Schlage depths which are .015" of an inch from one depth to the next would result in a much smaller system than using Kwikset depths of .023" of an inch would give you using standard total position progression master keying...

Schlage requires all keying systems to be produced using two-step progression because of how small the increment from one depth to the next is... So of the 10 depths possible, half of the depths become unusable in each chamber to ensure against unintended key interchange within the system... Doing the math that means:

4 depths to progress in each chamber X 5 pin lock = 4 ^ 5 = 1,024 key changes in a total position progression system...

Kwikset locks use a single-step progression method of designing keying systems so you can use 5 of the 6 standard depths in each chamber (without factoring in depth #7 which is often used in masterkeying Kwikset locks) but lets do the math using only 6 depths:

5 depths to progress in each chamber X 5 pin lock = 5 ^ 5 = 3,125 key changes in a total position progression system...

By using a rotating constant method of generating the keying system you will yield more usable key changes in the system but the math on the size of those systems depends on how many cuts each key shares with the master key in the system...

As far as your comments on which method to use to re-key Kwikset brand cylinders which have the removable spring cover cap on them, Kwikset literature says it is a matter of preference as to which way the cylinders are re-keyed, but in the case of a master keyed lock, it makes no sense at all to remove the c-clip and plug from the lock (when user removable spring cover access is an option) since unless you are using a special follower tool you will end up gutting the cylinder anyways, uncapping it, dumping it all out and inspecting the springs for wear and replacing as needed is the better of the two options and requires using fewer tools to accomplish...

~~ Evan
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby OldNorse » 27 Feb 2013 13:35

Here's how I wrangled my Defiant plug without all the pins falling out -because I don't have a hollow plug follower.

Image

Cut a piece of a soda-can and put it on top of your Kwikset style plug follower. Let it overlap the retainer-clip area and shove it through as you would normally. Remember to keep strip in place when putting the plug back in!
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby zeke79 » 27 Feb 2013 15:02

It's 2:01pm... Do you know where your necro is?
For the best book out there on high security locks and their operation, take a look at amazon.com for High-Security Mechanical Locks An Encyclopedic Reference. Written by our very own site member Greyman! A true 5 Star read!!
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Re: Could defiant lock be masterkeyed

Postby minifhncc » 28 Feb 2013 8:16

I personally wouldn't master key on a 5 pin lock. It reduces the number of possible combinations significantly.

I once visted a family member's home which was construction keyed by the builder (and change key used - i.e. ball bearing displaced) and my home key worked on their lock, and it was 5 pin...
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