Questions about NYC

[Crim]

Hey guys,

I am just getting into picking and i'm running around in the dark for the most part. Firstly though, I am confused about the legal side of things. I have been looking around but i'm getting different answers. And this is something I want to be sure of. I would be going back and forth from Long Island, New York and New York city. I am not certified by any means. And I don't plan on ever committing any sort of crime. Or hanging out behind buildings at night looking suspicious. I would be carrying a SouthOrd PXS-14 set. So basically would I run into problems or not? Any help with this would be appreciated.

[Squelchtone]

Hey guys,

I am just getting into picking and i'm running around in the dark for the most part. Firstly though, I am confused about the legal side of things. I have been looking around but i'm getting different answers. And this is something I want to be sure of. I would be going back and forth from Long Island, New York and New York city. I am not certified by any means. And I don't plan on ever committing any sort of crime. Or hanging out behind buildings at night looking suspicious. I would be carrying a SouthOrd PXS-14 set. So basically would I run into problems or not? Any help with this would be appreciated.

Carrying a pick set around NYC is just asking for trouble. It's not illegal unless you show intent of committing a crime with the picks, but post 9/11 everything is looked upon in a different light in the tri state area. If this is just a hobby for you, have a set at work in the city and a set at home on LI, but don't carry it around on you all the time, not unless you're a locksmith and doing it for work.

interesting choice of user name...
Squelchtone

[Crim]

Hey guys,

I am just getting into picking and i'm running around in the dark for the most part. Firstly though, I am confused about the legal side of things. I have been looking around but i'm getting different answers. And this is something I want to be sure of. I would be going back and forth from Long Island, New York and New York city. I am not certified by any means. And I don't plan on ever committing any sort of crime. Or hanging out behind buildings at night looking suspicious. I would be carrying a SouthOrd PXS-14 set. So basically would I run into problems or not? Any help with this would be appreciated.

Carrying a pick set around NYC is just asking for trouble. It's not illegal unless you show intent of committing a crime with the picks, but post 9/11 everything is looked upon in a different light in the tri state area. If this is just a hobby for you, have a set at work in the city and a set at home on LI, but don't carry it around on you all the time, not unless you're a locksmith and doing it for work.

interesting choice of user name...
Squelchtone

That's basically my fear. Since then right or wrong everyone is paranoid about everything. Granted I am thankful for the extra security. But sometimes it is a hassle. This is a hobby for me so that would be hard to explain. Like a lot of things I don't want to run in to the whole, "This is legal but we are going to give you a hard time and take it from you just cause." scenario. Are there cases of people who get certified just for the sake of not getting hassled? And I don't plan on carrying it around all the time. Im still really new to all of this. I have only had my picks for a few days now. So i'm still in the new toy phase and have them with me on Long Island. I haven't taken them into the city. And on a side note my user name is a shorter version of my favorite color Crimson red. I am a graphic designer and I started using it as a handle years ago when I was starting out and using that color like crazy. Oh the memories.

[maintenanceguy]

I don't believe NYC has any specific laws about possession of lock picks. However, you are in the most overzealous freedom restricted zone in the nation. too bad NY'ers are so afraid of doing anything. Must be an awful way to have to live every day.

Keep the picks in your pocket, don't show anybody and why would anyone suspect? Just don't do anything illegal when carrying them like having a 32oz beverage in your possession.

[Crim]

I don't believe NYC has any specific laws about possession of lock picks. However, you are in the most overzealous freedom restricted zone in the nation. too bad NY'ers are so afraid of doing anything. Must be an awful way to have to live every day.

Keep the picks in your pocket, don't show anybody and why would anyone suspect? Just don't do anything illegal when carrying them like having a 32oz beverage in your possession.

As far as I understand the laws for carrying lock picks are similar to other things like knife laws. It's not illegal until someone feels it is. So I can have them on me. But if a member of law enforcement decides that I am planning to commit a crime, help someone commit a crime, or look suspicious at all it becomes a problem. Now I don't plan on doing any of those things. And I will keeps them in a case zipped in my pocket. But it's such a hassle to be on edge like that. I really wish the laws weren't so grey with stuff like this.

[daniel22747]

If you want to have emergency picks to get yourself, family member, or friend back in your/their home if they should get locked you may want to store them in your car in the back of the glove compartment. They will not be on you but will be there if you need them.

You may want to carry a single extra key to your car in your other pocket so if you loose you regular keys you can still get to your picks.

If you take public transit, and thus would have to carry picks on you, then you might want to carry mini picks in your wallet. Be warned however that these little picks can be very fiddly and hard to use on anything beyond the most basic of locks. You should practice with them on a spare dead bolt lock to get good with them.

[phrygianradar]

I had the same fear as you do and I live in So. Cal. The cops can hassle you over anything and in some cases will, just to be the "big man". I had always worried that I would be driving home and get pulled over, searched, and they would find my picks. I use them at work to open stuff that the keys had been lost to (we have two big buildings and everything is locked up and we have a lot of turnover), or somebody put an unothorized lock on one of the 50+ lockers under my supervision; but I figured that at any given time there will have been a break-in in the area, and I would become suspect #1, resulting in the confiscation of all my picks. So I just got a locksmithing license. I am not bonded or anything, but I have a card that I can carry in my wallet that says I am a locksmith, the name of my business etc. It took a while to get as they did a backround check on me, took prints, and I had to get a fictitious business license also. All said and done, it cost about 150 dollars. I wrote an email to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services beforehand explaining what I use lockpicks for at work and they just said I need a license to have lockpicking tools, end of story. I understand that this is California and there are different laws for these sorts of things, but I feel a lot better knowing that if I ever do get searched they can't take my stuff. Plus after getting my license, the local (real) locksmith that I go to got a lot more friendly with me and has even let me pick SFIC locks for them to get them out of the mortice shells. They don't want to waste time on that stuff, but I like to work on those type of locks, so it's win win. There is a huge difference between someone with a locksmithing license (ie Me) and a REAL locksmith (ie Them), but I have piece of mind, so it is cool.

It was either get a licence or get two sets of picks (like already mentioned above); one for work, one for home. I'm not sure which would have been cheaper. Good luck!

[ARF-GEF]

Can they just search you because the are in the mood?

I think it was a wise decision to get a license for 150$. That is not too much price for the peace of mind.
Also on the long run this will be definitely cheaper than keeping 2 sets. Especially if you want to expand in the future with tubular picks and more expensive tools

[phrygianradar]

Can they just search you because the are in the mood?

I think it was a wise decision to get a license for 150$. That is not too much price for the peace of mind.
Also on the long run this will be definitely cheaper than keeping 2 sets. Especially if you want to expand in the future with tubular picks and more expensive tools

Very true! I have some tubular picks and Peterson picks, which are a bit pricey. Wouldn't want to lose them...

I don't think the police can search you "just because they are in the mood", but if they want to search you, they can "find" a reason. They could say you looked nervous and/or suspicious, but they have to have probible cause to do a search, I believe. Like if a store was broken into in the immediate area, and you are speeding away in a car that looks like what a whitness discribed as the getaway vehicle... (stupid example, I know). Many times when people get pulled over the officer will just ask if it is alright if they search their vehicle. If they ask and you consent, that is on you. How many times have they put that on the show "Cops", where the police officer asks if they can search the persons vehicle and they say, "yeah go ahead, I don't have anything to hide, help yourself...", and like two minutes later the cop has a crack pipe they found under the drivers seat and all sorts of crazy stuff! But if you say no, they will wonder why you are saying no?! (maybe you are hiding something) I believe at that point they can keep you there for no more than 30 minutes while they try to get a police dog to come and smell around the vehicle. If the dog alerts, then they have probible cause and can search without your permission.

I'm not sure about pedestrians though. One of the guys who works for me used to ride the bus to work and he said that he has been searched numerous times.

At this point let me say; I may be wrong and laws may have changed (not to mention laws vary from state to state, and I am in CA), so if you know for sure, feel free to correct me! This is what a friend of mine told me years ago, but he is a sherrif, so I would expect him to know what he is talking about.

I do think it was worth the money and hassle of getting a license though. No worries now. The funny thing is that I have never been searched when I wasn't at an airport, and the times that I have been pulled over I could count on one hand! Doesn't mean it couldn't happen though.

[keysman]

I am NOT an attorney: The opinions expressed below are not to be taken as anything other than the opinions of a civilian. For further clarification or more information please consult with a licensed attorney.

There is a lot of information at this web site:
http://www.flexyourrights.org/

After a recent traffic stop by the local police , I did some research concerning unwarranted searches.

#1 ALWAYS be polite, do not threaten, or suggest that the officer is out of line. ( they know what they are doing and don't need you to “ locker room lawyer them”)


Probable cause is a very gray area... IE reason to believe a SPECIFIC crime HAS BEEN committed or about to be ( very gray) committed , generally is considered probable cause.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_seizure

Non specific events,such as you might be able to commit a non specific crime ( Might be, Could be), are not considered probable cause.
For Example:
Living in a home with a set of stairs doesn't mean you plan to push your mother-in-law ( or anyone else for that matter) down them.
Owning a legal firearm doesn't mean you plan to rob the local 7-11 or go on a shooting spree at the local grammar school.

This does not mean the police can't TELL you they have probable cause ,in order to “trick “you into consenting to a search. Additionally they are not required to inform you of your right to refuse to an unwarranted search.

Pretty much unless you give them permission to enter/ search your person ,vehicle , house they need a warrant.

You have the right to question/ deny the request.
“For what reason? “ is a perfect response from you as it requires details/ justification for an unwarranted search.
Be prepared: “What have you got to hide” as a standard response to a denial to requested search.
Things to keep in mind:
1. A response to a question with a question ( what have you got to hide?) is an immediate clue that there is no “ cause” for a search.
2. You will be detained while several different police officers including supervisors will demand to know why you are refusing to consent. Be prepared for several threats of jail , loss of property ,( “we will tow your car and do a property search anyway so you may as well let us search your property and save yourself the trouble” “ We can get a warrant” ) or other liberty's, unless you consent to a search. Under most circumstances YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO ALLOW A SEARCH.
3. The entire event will be audio/ video recorded on the police vehicle. This evidence is available to a defense attorney just the same as it is available to the prosecutor. Take advantage of this. Ask questions ..request the offices speak in a clear and legible voice. Inform them you have a hearing problem if necessary. Request the officers name and badge # immediately after the “ request to search” or upon officer # 2 , #3 ect asking you a question .Ask the reason for the requested search several times over during a few minutes time. ( this eliminates the “convenient malfunction “ of the video recording)
4. Police officers who are lying, conspiring with their fellow officers to violate your constitutional rights, don't like to be easily identified. Always ask for name and badge # ( refusal / hesitation is an indication they have something to hide).



I am NOT an attorney: The opinions expressed are are not to be taken as anything other than the opinions of a civilian. For further clarification or more information please consult with a licensed attorney.


Thanks rant/off

[Crim]

Basically like Phrygianrader mention. If they want to search you they will find a way. And it can be for reasons so simple as you looked like you were up to something. Which is why it's a pain to live in NY when it comes to stuff like this. I may just get certified then. If that's the price area in NY it isn't that bad for piece of mind. I use public transit a lot to get to and from and around the city. And thats why im so worried. Is anyone here certified in the area? I looked into getting certified and got all different results for schools and courses for hundreds and hundreds. And I don't even know if they are legit. Also when you get certified is that for life? Or do you have to re do it annually?

Also in terms of the small wallet picks do they make expandable ones? Maybe like a version that folds out to make a full size pick? Or have I just came up with something possibly awesome?

[phrygianradar]

In California to get a locksmithing license, all you have to do is fill out the necessary paperwork, have a backround check completed (they use a system called "live scan" and I got it done at a UPS Store for $82.95, which would have only been $70, but I had them take two passport photos, which are also required) which is sent to the FBI and Department of Justice. All in all it took five things to get my license (six if you count money!)

1. Application for License (Provided by the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services)
2. Personal Identification Form (same as above)
3. Copy of the Live Scan form signed by the Live Scan opereator
4. Request for Authorization of Business Name
5. Copy of Fictitious Name Statement filed with the county clerk

Filling the forms was $75 dollars, Live Scan was $70, and the Filling Fic. Name Statement was $45. So, actually it was a little closer to $200 dollars, and you have to renew your license every two years for $25 dollars. That was it. It was a bit of a hassle, and it cost money, but I feel it was worth it. Notice that I never mentioned going to classes on locksmithing, or taking online courses? That is why I also said that there is a HUGE difference between me and a REAL locksmith! All the license does is give me (and only me) the OK to carry and use lockpicking tools for myself, my family or friends (people that understand that I might mess something up and end up costing them more money to fix...) and in my case my employeer (because they also understand that there is a limit to what I can and cannot do). At my work I occasionally pick a lock off a locker(turnover), open a locked panel for repairs, and I have, to date, opened three cars to get friends keys out for them.

And Keysman, I love what you posted! Very informative.