Troubles with TOK tension.

[JohnnyWalker]

Hey everyone,

As my thread title indicates I am having difficulty with TOK tension. All of the locks I've been working with I've been able to use BOK tension and over time I've gotten better at being able to determine how much force to apply to the tensor. However, after modifying one of my tensors to be used for TOK tension I am not finding that it helps at all. I'm sure some of it has to do with the fact that I'm new to this method, but I was hoping you folks could point me in the right direction here.

At first I thought my difficulties were due to the fact that I recently purchased a new lock with the intent of it being more challenging than others I own, as well as being new to using TOK tension. However, what I've found is that even with all of the locks that I have no problem using BOK tension to SPP them, I am unable to open any of them using TOK tension. It doesn't seem to matter how much force I apply to the tensor, either. Whether I use very light tension (just enough to keep the tensor from falling out of the keyway), if I use a lot (enough that an indentation is left on my finger when done), or any amount of tension in between, I am having zero success using the TOK method. Maybe it's all in my head, but it seems like I'm feeling less feedback from my picks (when using TOK). At best I'm only able to set one pin, but often none at all. I can feel the pins being pushed up, but I can't seem to find the "sweet spot" where the pins get set (even with my "easy" locks). Was this normal for you guys when you first starting using TOK and/or moving your way up to slightly more challenging locks? I'm completely lost here and would be appreciative of any suggestions you might have.

Thanks,
JW

[cheerIO]

My experience as a fairly new picker:

At first, I could not get any feeling either. I was used to picking padlocks and doorlocks in my hand with bottom of the key way tension. Then I got a vise. A cheap one that you can buy at Harbor Freight. This gave me a bunch more feeling. You aren't squeezing the lock, holding your arm up, and trying to tension all with one arm. All you have to do is rest your hand on the vise and give tension. It brought up my perceived resolution of tension by ten times. And it really allows you to back off all the way with no worries of dropping the lock or the tension wrench cause you can hold it from both sides. I would give a vise a try if you don't already have one.

Like you, I do notice that a lot of locks I use bottom tension on are impossible to pick with top of the keyway though. Guess some locks just work better different ways.

[Divinorum]

For me it all depends on the lock at hand. TOK is not always going to help or give you an advantage. It has it's place but sometimes it's not necessary and can complicate a simple lock. With experience you will learn when it's necessary and will benefit your picking and when it will not. After I started picking American Locks and Schlahe C keyway I got very stuck on TOK and when I went to pick a master lock I defaulted to TOK and I could not open that lock for the life of me. I went back to BOK and opened it really easy. I think cheerIO makes a good point. Some locks like it on top and others like it on the bottom.

[mseifert]

As with anything .. When you change up your gear, technique, etc .. There is a little bit of a learning curve.. I make my own picks and tension wrenches and whenever I make a new pick it takes a little while to get used to it... This applies to technique.. If you change something up you will need to practice to perfect it.... Hunters don't just go down and buy a new gun and are instantly on target ...

I don't have any Peterson Prybars and I am able to pick American and Master Lock with TOK Tension... I believe this just comes down to preference and practice...

Some locks like it on top and others like it on the bottom

My inner 12 year old boy I actually LOL'd

[JohnnyWalker]

Thanks for all the replies here, you guys. This is all very helpful and I appreciate you folks taking the time to read and respond to this. I think I fall into a self-made trap of thinking I need a specific method or tool to get the job done based on what I read here or seeing videos on the youtube. But what I need to bear in mind is the old saying "There's more than one one way to skin a cat." Obviously the experience and advice of others, especially from those who are very reputable and know what they're doing, will be of great value to me, but I also need to remember there's no one "magic bullet" to defeating locks. I'm just going to have to practice my lock picking techniques and that will be the best thing I can do to improve my skills.

.

Some locks like it on top and others like it on the bottom

My inner 12 year old boy I actually LOL'd

That's hilarious! I didn't even catch that until I read your post.

[KPick]

Thanks for all the replies here, you guys. This is all very helpful and I appreciate you folks taking the time to read and respond to this. I think I fall into a self-made trap of thinking I need a specific method or tool to get the job done based on what I read here or seeing videos on the youtube. But what I need to bear in mind is the old saying "There's more than one one way to skin a cat." Obviously the experience and advice of others, especially from those who are very reputable and know what they're doing, will be of great value to me, but I also need to remember there's no one "magic bullet" to defeating locks. I'm just going to have to practice my lock picking techniques and that will be the best thing I can do to improve my skills.

Yes. You got it. Basically, you own the skill as you practice.

[GrzyWhop33]

I had the same problem as you. But after getting the feel of my TOK tool... it is now my go to wrench. Now I just need to get a feel for my Bogotá's.

[The Lock Artist]

Lots of good info here. Another thing to note is that your wrench shouldn't interfere with the pins, it should not touch the front pin.
In my experience, TOK tension is usually unnecessary unless working with a lock that has a particularly restrictive keyway. Bottom of keyway is default and then I revert to TOK if I can't maneuver my pick properly because of the tension wrench. TOK is, in my opinion, more difficult because the wrench falls out more easily and you have to be more careful depending on how close your front pin is to the front of the plug. As mseifert said, there is a learning curve when practicing any new technique and you will eventually get the hang of it. Good luck.

[JohnnyWalker]

Thanks for your comments, KPick and GrzyWhop33. I've been practicing my TOK technique, but I am still yet to pick any of my locks with it.

Lots of good info here. Another thing to note is that your wrench shouldn't interfere with the pins, it should not touch the front pin.
In my experience, TOK tension is usually unnecessary unless working with a lock that has a particularly restrictive keyway. Bottom of keyway is default and then I revert to TOK if I can't maneuver my pick properly because of the tension wrench. TOK is, in my opinion, more difficult because the wrench falls out more easily and you have to be more careful depending on how close your front pin is to the front of the plug. As mseifert said, there is a learning curve when practicing any new technique and you will eventually get the hang of it. Good luck.

Thanks for your input here, TLA. I think when I first started trying to use TOK tension interfering with the front pin may have been an issue, but I know it's not now. The first thing I do is push the front pin up with my hook to make sure this is not an issue and it also ensures that the wrench is free to rotate the plug. Like you, I have always used BOK tension as my default because I haven't had any locks that had particularly restrictive keyways. I only started using TOK tension because I recently purchased a new lock and from what I had read here and videos I've seen on the youtube it seemed like people had more success using TOK tension with this lock (American Lock series 50). I'm going to continue practicing this technique so I have another technique to use in the future, but in the meantime I'm getting a bit frustrated that I'm getting nowhere with TOK tension on any of my locks or anywhere with this new lock using BOK or TOK.

[cheerIO]

Now that you have mentioned that you started using Top of the keyway tension because of your American lock, I'll give you my experience. I got a 5200 and a 1305 because they had no keys and I was all set to pick them after going through all kinds of locks with security pins. But man I was sooo wrong when I thought I would have them open in a day. I picked on them every night for 3 weeks trying to open them but like you, it was like there was no feeling. Even when I was using "light" tension.

Well, I broke down, went to my locksmiths and bought a used 1305 with keys. I took this one apart and spent a week slowly loading the pins in it. Don't rush. I mean I spent an hour with only one pin in there trying to feel what the serrated pin felt like when it was moving. Then when you load two pins in, you can actually feel the fake snaps before it actually reaches the real shear line. Load the pins up slowly. Do it with the serrated one and the spools if you have any in there. I actually had to back up and load fewer pins in it a couple times.

What did I learn? I learned that my "light" tension wasn't anywhere near light. I learned the real feeling of an actual set as compared to a false one on serrated pins. And if you don't do the exercise of loading only 1 or 2 pins in there; you are picking a lock that you don't actually know what feeling you are looking for to pick it. I also found the best tension wrench for me for TOK is one like this:



The longer length gives a more exaggerated feedback when working with the small serrations in Americans. And I squeezed down the end that goes into the keyway a few times with some dykes so that it wouldn't slip out of the keyway so easily.

As has been said earlier in the discussion, BOK is default and only go to TOK when you have to. That's my theory anyway. I only use Top Tension so far on my Americans, ContainerGuard, Master 911, Master 570, and Master Lockout/Tagout.

Any way, after working with the pins one by one, after a week I was able to open that lock with all the pins loaded and then went to the other two and picked them no problem. Good Luck!!!

[JohnnyWalker]

Thanks for the advice, cheerIO. I've been working on this lock for a little over two weeks now and I've made no progress yet. I've thought about trying to take the lock apart, but I have no idea how to do that. I tried youtubing it, but the videos I found are for doorknob locks or deadbolts. I haven't found one for pad locks. I've also been trying to figure out how I know if I have a false set, or if I've over set a pin, but I'm lost there, too. This whole TOK tension thing has me completely baffled. I've been trying TOK tension with every lock I own for the past two weeks and I have yet to pick a single one of them with this method. Nevertheless, I'm not ready to give up. I'm going to keep trying and hopefully I can learn TOK and regardless of whether it's with BOK or TOK tension I want to beat this new American lock.

[smokingman]

You might want to check and make sure that the tension tool is not touching the first pin.
This will prevent free movement of that pin and the lock will not open as a result.
If someone has already mentioned this, then I digress.

[cheerIO]

JohnnyWalker: Taking apart an american is no big deal at all. Especially if you have a key. BosnianBill is my absolute favorite YouTuber when it comes to locks. Check out this video.



The only thing you have to look out for is the plug has to be rotated CCW for the plug follower to keep the pins in the bible. But if you have a key, that isn't a problem.

I can't recommend Bosnian Bill's videos enough. Watch any of them that have "gutted" in the title and you will see that most pin tumblers come apart the same. Don't worry if you blow up the lock and drop all the pieces. As long as you have the key, you can drop the pins back in the plug to fit the key and be ready for reassembly. Just watch a bunch of his videos before doing anything and you will understand how they go together.

Also you sound pretty new, like myself. This, I feel, is the absolute best video about how to learn picking and progress in a manner that makes sense. It saved me so much time an so much frustration. BosnianBill lays out all the locks in increasing difficulty to teach you how to deal with more pins and more security. I would not have had a chance against my Americans without learning from all these other locks. (notice the American is at the end of the line) Here's the video:



For a great demonstration of false sets:



Pretty much, just watch hours and hours of BosnianBill. He's helped me immensely.

[JohnnyWalker]

You might want to check and make sure that the tension tool is not touching the first pin.
This will prevent free movement of that pin and the lock will not open as a result.
If someone has already mentioned this, then I digress.

Thanks for your comments here, smokingman. I think this may have been an issue when I first started trying to use TOK tension, but now the first thing I do when I put the tensor in is to make sure it's not interfering with the first pin.

Pretty much, just watch hours and hours of BosnianBill. He's helped me immensely.

Thanks for all the links to BB's vids, cheerIO. I'm a huge fan of his vids and I am one of his many subscribers. I'm also a subscriber of Schuyler Towne's channel, as well as LocksmithArmy's channel (I think that might be the same LocksmithArmy that's a member here at LP101). I'm sure you already know this, but there are a ton of folks with lock picking videos on the youtube and the three channels I just mentioned are ones I find particularly helpful.

Thanks again for the help here, you two. I really appreciate it.