Under setting

[Dyonzi]

Does under setting only happen with security pins or can it also happen with regular pins?
Thanks for the help

[ltdbjd]

If by under setting you mean binding the top pin, it can happen with any pin.

Think of it this way. If you insert the wrong key into a lock and try to turn it, you've bound the pins. Either top pins or bottom pins are binding, so you can't unlock it. It doesn't matter what kind of pin it is.

[Dyonzi]

I'm still not entirely sure I get it.please help me understand. I got the definition of underset ring from the lsi guide page 14 where it said - "underset binding: pin has been lifted, but not all the way to the shear line. key pin is free to fall back down and will not be under spring tension"
What I don't understand is if it hasn't been lifted past the shear line why is there no spring tension?
Thanks for the help

[GWiens2001]

because the driver pin is wedged at the shear line.

Gordon

[Dyonzi]

How would I prevent/ recognize/ fix this?
Thanks

[Robotnik]

To expand upon the mechanical aspects of Gordon's (very correct) answer, say you have a binding pin that you move upward with a pick. The key pin falls back down, and moves freely (i.e. is no longer under spring tension). You think the pin is set, but if the driver pin hasn't cleared the shear line; it's still bound and blocking rotation and preventing other pins from binding. Unless you detect this condition and remedy, it'll stymie further picking.

[Dyonzi]

How would I detect and remedy? Thanks for the help

[ltdbjd]

To answer your question, the top (driver) pin is stuck at the shear line. The spring is pressing down on it, but it's not going anywhere. When you touch the bottom (key) pin and lift it, it lifts freely because the top (driver) pin is wedged above it.

You have two pins. Top (driver) pin and a bottom (key) pin.

If you lift the pins and line them up properly, with the bottom pin below the shear line and the top pin above it, the lock turns. If you over lift them (left the entire pin stack too high), the bottom pin rises above the shear line and gets stuck there. If you under lift them (don't lift the pin stack high enough), the top pin is not raised above the shear line and gets stuck there.

Here's what I recommend. Go to the TOOOL website at tool.us. Click on "resources." Then click on the right "lock picking" slideshow. Spend some time going through it. The slides are active, so you can see exactly what happens when the pins move up and down, and where/how they can bind.

It sounds like you might have rushed into picking. Before you can be effective at picking, you have to have a thorough understanding of how a lock works. I don't think you have the in depth knowledge needed. That's not a bad thing, that's where EVERYBODY starts.

Kind of like the lock with spool pins, I'd put your picks in the drawer for a couple of days. Spend some time on the TOOOL website, and go though some of the web sites it links to on the resources page. Once you understand exactly how a pin tumbler lock works, and you can paint a mental picture of what's going on in the lock, you'll have an easier time picking.

Everybody will have different opinions about how to get started. Personally, I'd recommend getting a copy of Deviant Ollam's book Practical Lock Picking. I think that's an outstanding resource to take you through what you need to know step-by-step. Start from the beginning, and don't move ahead until you understand each section.

As I alluded to earlier, it's a learned skill, and it can't be rushed. Enjoy the time learning, because there's a lifetimes worth.

[ltdbjd]

I figure it out when all the bottom pins move freely, which means all the top pins have been set, and the lock is picked!!! YAY!!! Except the plug isn't rotating. BOOO!!!

Since the bottom pins move freely, they aren't in contact with the top pins. In the good scenario, this is because the top pins are all resting on the plug, so the plug is free to rotate. In the bad scenario, a top pin is bound. Could have under lifted, could have a spool or serrated pin (false set), etc. But since you're using a progressively pinned cylinder without spool/serrated pins (right?) you get to let go of the tension, let everything reset, and start over.

There are other techniques for the special top pins, but you have to master the basics first.

[Dyonzi]

Thanks

[Dyonzi]

I'm going to go through the tool website and hopefully the book too

[capt.dunc]

this could occur when you have a key pin of a narrower diameter than the driver pin. pin stack/driver pin binds, you lift, but not as far as the shear line (perhaps you hit a side ward and think you have), the narrower key pin drops freely and feels correctly set.

[Squelchtone]

How would I detect and remedy? Thanks for the help

With practice. It's not a simple thing we can explain to you and as a new picker you'll be like, oh duh, that was easy. It will come to you with time and much practice to recognize the state of a pin.

Squelchtone

[Squelchtone]

I figure it out when all the bottom pins move freely, which means all the top pins have been set, and the lock is picked!!! YAY!!! Except the plug isn't rotating. BOOO!!!

If the plug wont turn its 4 things:

1. the lock is broken or in disrepair or assembled too tightly. Does the actual key turn easily it in either direction? if you dont have a key then we cant test if the lock is in good working order to begin with. Have you tried picking in both directions? maybe it only turns clockwise or counter clockwise?

2. You've convinced yourself that based on your observations of the current pin states and skill level as a picker that it is picked, but it probably isn't picked, so that's why the plug won't rotate.

3. You have the wrench in such a location that the plug and shell are grinding together at the bottom of the keyway, and unless we see a pic *you* take (not a google search pic of someone elses lock and wrench), then we cant tell you exactly why it wont turn. A video of you attempting to apply rotation to the plug would be even better, so if you are tech savvy enough to post a 10 second youtube clip we could tell you all sorts of hints as to what's going on.

4. You have a finer touch than most and you are applying enough rotational force on the plug to set the pins and keep them from falling back down, but not enough force to rotate the plug once the last pin has been set. Have you tried pressing harder against the wrench to rotate the plug? (usually beginners have the opposite problem, in that they press on the turning tool way too hard and find it difficult to lift pins with all the added friction they introduced.)

hope this helps,
Squelchtone